Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Discussion of newer designs, copies and reissue offset-waist instruments.
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Larry Mal
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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by Larry Mal » Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:19 am

I suppose that amidst all the advice here, it never occurred to me to ask what is it you are looking to be different from your otherwise great for this use Les Paul? I notice that a lot of folks are kind of leaning towards offset guitars that are approximations of Les Pauls anyway, other than the scale length I guess.

But to the OP- what are you looking to get out of your offset guitar other than looks? What kind of sound are you looking for? How to you want this to contrast with your Les Paul?
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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by Beebe » Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:27 am

I should probably wait for the answer to Larry's question, but I wanted to mention that there are several hum canceling P-90s (or similar output) pickups out there that sound really good. The quiet coils from Mojotone sound good for the price. Kinman are my favorite so far. Kinman offers their strat pickups in a mustang cover, so you could get any output strength you might want and still look right... and sound better than fender mustang pickups imho... especially for your style. I also like the Filtertron suggestion. TV Jones offers them in a humbucker size with single plastic covers that I think would look "right" in an offset. The quick decay of a filtertron is a good thing when it comes to tight fast multi string riffs / rhythm. Look for something with around an 8k equivalent output and if your Les Paul has PAF style humbuckers then your gain structure would be similar and you'd be able to avoid knob adjustments when switching instruments, but would still get the change in character. I'm currently getting in parts for an all Mahogany Mustang that I'll be fitting with Kinman P-90 Buckers. I like the Gibson sound, but prefer the 24" scale and comfortable Fender body shapes. In addition, I like the hard tail conversation plates from Faction guitars. They have a JM style plate that gives you a shorter string length behind the bridge, tightening up a bit for heavier playing while still looking like a classic offset.
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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by SamthePlant » Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:15 pm

Larry Mal wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:19 am
I suppose that amidst all the advice here, it never occurred to me to ask what is it you are looking to be different from your otherwise great for this use Les Paul? I notice that a lot of folks are kind of leaning towards offset guitars that are approximations of Les Pauls anyway, other than the scale length I guess.

But to the OP- what are you looking to get out of your offset guitar other than looks? What kind of sound are you looking for? How to you want this to contrast with your Les Paul?

Thanks for your insight Larry!

Basically, I'm looking for a single coil guitar that can GET BY doing heavy rhythm guitar in a Failure/Cloakroom/Teenage Wrist type band, but that thrives in sonic environments akin to Radiohead. Probably should have clarified this in my initial post, whoops ☺

I tried playing a J Mascis JM at one of my band practices a while back, and my drummer commented that he couldn't "feel" my guitar as much as he normally would with my Les Paul.

Our bass player suggested that a Jaguar might accommodate this because of the short scale. Similarly, I've read that many Jag players notice a kind of "thump" in the attack of a Jag, and I wonder if this thump might address the aforementioned lack of "feel" that my drummer reported with respect to the J Mascis JM.

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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by Ceylon » Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:27 am

Jaguars are generally a little bit more aggressive, while Jazzmasters are a bit more mellow-sounding. I think it does largely come down to the scale, but also there really is something to Jaguar pickups. If I were in a Teenage Wrist-type of band I'd be using my Jaguar for sure.

I occasionally like to belt out some stoner/doom-type riffs a la Sleep, Electric Wizard, Witch, Kyuss etc. and I find both Jaguars and Jazzmasters can get this really thick, sleazy, grungy tone that's perfect for that type of stuff if you play with the rhythm circuit, roll the tone back a bit and crank the tone/treble/gain controls on your pedals and amp a bit extra to compensate.

The beauty especially with a Jaguar is that since you've got both the rhythm circuit and the strangle switch, you've got 7 different tones on tap, and if you can be arsed to tweak the rest of your signal chain to accomodate them, that can be a lot of versatility from one and the same guitar.
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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by Beebe » Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:29 am

Sounds like it has a lot to do with the scooped nature of single coil pickups. All that shimmer and shine can get lost with a heavy drummer. The best thing you can do to address this is use an EQ pedal. If you have a fender amp or similar that shines in a clean environment then the issue is only exasperated. Start by cranking the mids on your amp higher than sounds good on its own. And make sure the other guitarist is using a different type of pickup for better separation. And some of the best Radiohead sounds came from wide range humbuckers (WRHB), so you might consider these over single coils.
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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by manwithtitties » Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:06 am

SamthePlant wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:15 pm
Larry Mal wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:19 am
I suppose that amidst all the advice here, it never occurred to me to ask what is it you are looking to be different from your otherwise great for this use Les Paul? I notice that a lot of folks are kind of leaning towards offset guitars that are approximations of Les Pauls anyway, other than the scale length I guess.

But to the OP- what are you looking to get out of your offset guitar other than looks? What kind of sound are you looking for? How to you want this to contrast with your Les Paul?

Thanks for your insight Larry!

Basically, I'm looking for a single coil guitar that can GET BY doing heavy rhythm guitar in a Failure/Cloakroom/Teenage Wrist type band, but that thrives in sonic environments akin to Radiohead. Probably should have clarified this in my initial post, whoops ☺

I tried playing a J Mascis JM at one of my band practices a while back, and my drummer commented that he couldn't "feel" my guitar as much as he normally would with my Les Paul.

Our bass player suggested that a Jaguar might accommodate this because of the short scale. Similarly, I've read that many Jag players notice a kind of "thump" in the attack of a Jag, and I wonder if this thump might address the aforementioned lack of "feel" that my drummer reported with respect to the J Mascis JM.
I mean most of cloakroom has been recorded with a thinline p90 tele. Dont see how any jag or a jazzmaster wouldnt work.

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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by Steadyriot. » Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:36 am

SamthePlant wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:15 pm
Larry Mal wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:19 am
I suppose that amidst all the advice here, it never occurred to me to ask what is it you are looking to be different from your otherwise great for this use Les Paul? I notice that a lot of folks are kind of leaning towards offset guitars that are approximations of Les Pauls anyway, other than the scale length I guess.

But to the OP- what are you looking to get out of your offset guitar other than looks? What kind of sound are you looking for? How to you want this to contrast with your Les Paul?

Thanks for your insight Larry!

Basically, I'm looking for a single coil guitar that can GET BY doing heavy rhythm guitar in a Failure/Cloakroom/Teenage Wrist type band, but that thrives in sonic environments akin to Radiohead. Probably should have clarified this in my initial post, whoops ☺

I tried playing a J Mascis JM at one of my band practices a while back, and my drummer commented that he couldn't "feel" my guitar as much as he normally would with my Les Paul.

Our bass player suggested that a Jaguar might accommodate this because of the short scale. Similarly, I've read that many Jag players notice a kind of "thump" in the attack of a Jag, and I wonder if this thump might address the aforementioned lack of "feel" that my drummer reported with respect to the J Mascis JM.
I know you’re looking for an offset but have you considered a Telecaster? Tele’s will work in almost any context and take anything you throw at it with ease.
Maybe one of those Telemasters?

Personally, I play a Johnny Marr Jaguar in a high gain context (early 2000 pop-punk and modern pop punk) and it has the most percussive and clear sound I could ever wish for. Seeing that the JM Jag has about the lowest output pickups in the current Fender lineup, pretty much any guitar can work for you in a high gain context.
Modern amps have so much gain on tap, that not slamming the front end with a humbucker just means turning a few knobs. All without that humbucker mud.
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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by Nick and the Noise » Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:26 am

For this type of sound I'd probably get an Jazzmaster or Jaguar with Duncan Quarter Pounds and of course a big high gain amp. It knocks the resonant right down. It will sound more Gibson SG Special than putting P90s in it (because: wood, neck, etc), but you still get the rich behind the bridge overtones.

I prefer P90s myself (or a combination of P90 and vintage style), because they're more versatile.

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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by HarlowTheFish » Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:14 am

I'm gonna chime in and say that unless you're not running that much gain and have good noise-reduction conventions (i.e. good pedalboard/amp power, etc) taken care of, you might end up having a bad time with mains hum, so consider leaving yourself some budget headroom either for some noiseless pickups -- which are options in various voicings -- or for a nice noise gate which will help tremendously with this. There's a lot of good tones in an offset, but it can be a bit of a pain to trim out all the stuff you don't need/want.

Others brought up the sympathetic ringing and I will say that while yes it's annoying and especially for tighter styles can be a problem, it's easy enough to pack a bobby pin or some electrical tape (on the cheap end) or a Jimmy Clip or Fret Wrap to kill it. For reference, this is something I have to do on the headstock side of all my non-headless guitars when I'm trying to record this kind of stuff, so it's not a problem exclusive to offsets, but they can sometimes have it as a much more prominent part of the sound than other guitars.

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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by Maggieo » Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:21 am

A Johnny Marr Jag and a Z Vex Box Of Metal pedal will get you what you want. The gate on the BOM is stellar for Da CHUNK.
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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by VPO » Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:55 pm

I would check out Reverend Guitars Double Agent W (humbucker on bridge and P90 on neck) or their new Six Gun HPP (humbucker on bridge and P90 on middle and neck).

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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by CivoLee » Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:47 pm

I've not heard the bands in question (except Radiohead, and even they use PAF guitars occasionally), but it's been my experience that any high-gain sound that works with wide singles like P90s or JM pickups sounds better with PAF-style humbuckers. YMMV, of course.

I'd go for a G&L Doheny HH or even a V12, but those might not suit the OP's budget...

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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by manwithtitties » Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:16 pm

can everyone just listen to cloakroom for a second? Like this is one of my favorite bands. Does this sound like a band where you need a high gain amp, a noise gate or humbuckers? Or where behind the bridge ringing would be bad?

https://youtu.be/7O4uo3azc3M

https://youtu.be/cRV23dNfw78

No. Its the guitarist playing sus2 chords and the bassist playing the corresponding power chords at all times with russian big muffs on at the distorted parts. Analog delay, afterneath or tera echo and a reverse delay for the clean parts. Your drummer mentioning that he couldnt hear the mascis during practices is because of the bassist not being loud enough in the low mids. Your guitar has to kinda come through in the higher mids and not be heard as a seperate instrument, if that makes sense. I dont see how offsets couldnt work for this, because any guitar could work for this.

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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by Beebe » Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:43 am

manwithtitties wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:16 pm
can everyone just listen to cloakroom for a second? Like this is one of my favorite bands. Does this sound like a band where you need a high gain amp, a noise gate or humbuckers? Or where behind the bridge ringing would be bad?

https://youtu.be/7O4uo3azc3M

https://youtu.be/cRV23dNfw78

No. Its the guitarist playing sus2 chords and the bassist playing the corresponding power chords at all times with russian big muffs on at the distorted parts. Analog delay, afterneath or tera echo and a reverse delay for the clean parts. Your drummer mentioning that he couldnt hear the mascis during practices is because of the bassist not being loud enough in the low mids. Your guitar has to kinda come through in the higher mids and not be heard as a seperate instrument, if that makes sense. I dont see how offsets couldnt work for this, because any guitar could work for this.
I agree. If that Sovtek Mig 50 behaves like the Fender Bassman like EH says it does then the OP should have plenty of mids and harmonics to cut through. The other guitarist in my band plays a 40W blackface Bassman. For my P-90 pickups and 80W Dual Showman to balance, I need my volume on 8 and mids pegged plus an EQ pedal with mids boosted. Our drummer hits hard.
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Re: Offset for High Gain Rhythm Guitar

Post by robroe » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:07 am

Toronado.

Image

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CC9jF5vj8r ... =copy_link

Here's a quick demo I did last summer playing a bit of Rocket by smashing pumpkins. High Gain Fuzz

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