In defence of the American Original

Discussion of newer designs, copies and reissue offset-waist instruments.
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Larry Mal
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Re: In defence of the American Original

Post by Larry Mal » Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:40 pm

I'm also skeptical of this every four year refresh thing that Fender is supposed to be doing... Fender really doesn't have all that much to really change around. I guess I've recently come to own an American Special guitar, it's nice, and I read up a fair amount on what makes that series be any different from the American Standards, which I own a Telecaster from and love.

And the difference is pretty slight overall, I guess, still it's more difference than the American Special and the American Performer. Frankly, I think that Fender just changes things a slight amount so that guitar magazines will give them free press in taking about it like it's a real change or something.

Like, the only real difference I see with the American Special Telecaster and the American Performer Telecaster is the pickups, the Special has the Texas Specials and the Performer has the new Yosemite pickups (Yo, semite!).

Is that really a whole new line? I dunno, maybe, whatever.
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Re: In defence of the American Original

Post by vistavision » Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:36 pm

Larry Mal wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:40 pm
Frankly, I think that Fender just changes things a slight amount so that guitar magazines will give them free press in taking about it like it's a real change or something.
I definitely think this is it. Fender's Marketing Department has to make it seem like they're doing something new, all the time. They ultimately end up making things overly confusing. Coming up later this year sometime is the Fender Player Plus Series. It's basically just Player Strats, Teles, and J & P basses (no offsets!) with upgraded stuff*. So they're cramming another modern-spec line between the Player and Performer Series.

*I didn't check on what made them different, though. I was too busy rolling my eyes. I'll go check this week.
I'm sure some Fender dealer in '64 looked at the new Duo-Sonic II and thought, "That's not a Duo-Sonic. That's a Mustang".

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Re: In defence of the American Original

Post by manwithtitties » Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:43 pm

theyre genuinely beyond my price range to even have an opinion on them. im sure most people would i agree that i own too many guitars (and fair enough, i do), and if i were to sell them all, i would still not be able to afford an AO jazzmaster. they cost more than a months worth of my salary, as a college educated guy who lives a fairly comfortable middle class life in western europe. i do honestly kind of wonder, who has access to these kinds of guitars?

i mean i do kind of get it, i dont make any money of off being a musician, so it doesnt make much sense for me to own one. but even in a guitar shop, i would never try one as theyre usually in some secured display that the sales people have to open, and which creates the expectation for them that i would buy one. not worth wasting their time imo.

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Re: In defence of the American Original

Post by Zeus » Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:52 am

manwithtitties wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:43 pm
theyre genuinely beyond my price range to even have an opinion on them. im sure most people would i agree that i own too many guitars (and fair enough, i do), and if i were to sell them all, i would still not be able to afford an AO jazzmaster. they cost more than a months worth of my salary, as a college educated guy who lives a fairly comfortable middle class life in western europe. i do honestly kind of wonder, who has access to these kinds of guitars?

i mean i do kind of get it, i dont make any money of off being a musician, so it doesnt make much sense for me to own one. but even in a guitar shop, i would never try one as theyre usually in some secured display that the sales people have to open, and which creates the expectation for them that i would buy one. not worth wasting their time imo.
There is definitely a difference in price for these guitars for those of us living outside of the USA.

Sweetwater sell the AO60s Jazzmaster for $2029 USD.

You're probably looking at $2270 USD (€1925) in Europe, or $2385 USD ($3199 AUD) in Australia.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... -turquoise
https://max.guitars/en-eu/fender-americ ... -art-15782
https://www.mannys.com.au/fender-americ ... UQQAvD_BwE

You're also much less likely to score a second-deal over here, given the much smaller market.

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Re: In defence of the American Original

Post by Ceylon » Wed Jul 14, 2021 3:50 am

Larry Mal wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:40 pm
I'm also skeptical of this every four year refresh thing that Fender is supposed to be doing... Fender really doesn't have all that much to really change around.

Frankly, I think that Fender just changes things a slight amount so that guitar magazines will give them free press in taking about it like it's a real change or something.
The band Neu! allegedly picked their name (which means New in German) because it's the single most powerful word in advertising. If you wanna sell something, it doesn't matter so much if it's a lot like the old thing if it is in fact n e w
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Re: In defence of the American Original

Post by JamesSGBrown » Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:55 am

manwithtitties wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:43 pm
i do honestly kind of wonder, who has access to these kinds of guitars?
Dude they're not like a million euros.

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Re: In defence of the American Original

Post by redchapterjubilee » Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:23 am

I bought what was readily available when I was in the market to buy American made Fender Jazzmasters, and that meant vintage spec. AVRI 62, thinskin AVRI 62, Sonic Youth/Dinosaur Jr/Elvis Costello sigs, or Custom Shop. Thinskin was the only "modern" spec JM, and that only extended to the frets and fretboard. Then came the Mexican stuff, then Squiers, then the explosion of offsets. Were I to be in the market now versus 10+ years ago I'd likely be buying Am Pros and AO's. That said, I'm not gonna sell my AVRI's and AV65 to buy an Am Pro or AO because I like what I've got. I say that, but the night burst Am Pro II has been tempting because that finish is amazing.

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Re: In defence of the American Original

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:24 am

Ceylon wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 3:50 am


The band Neu! allegedly picked their name (which means New in German) because it's the single most powerful word in advertising. If you wanna sell something, it doesn't matter so much if it's a lot like the old thing if it is in fact n e w
No doubt- I like Neu!, also, and I appreciate the exclamation point on there as well to really ram home the marketing excitement.

I had said for years on here that if Fender made an American Standard Jazzmaster that I would buy one. Well, frankly I lost interest in the idea (I have two Jazzmasters and don't need a third), and I took my out as being that Fender never really did make an American Standard, they made a whole bunch of other marketing term things including the American Original.

I guess I am seeing that the American Original is just a vintage spec Fender with a 9.5" radius and an updated bridge- that is, in effect, what I had always hoped the American Standard Jazzmaster would be.

And I like the 9.5" radius! I have two Telecasters, an American Standard and an AVRI. I can never really enjoy the AVRI for whatever reason. I typically love that line, and vintage Fender in general, but this American Standard just rules.

That being said, as long as we are talking marketing, Fender themselves markets very aggressively against the vintage Fender specs. It's no wonder that a lot of guitar players have just swallowed a whole lot of misconceptions about the vintage Fender necks, especially since the modern incarnation of the company itself writes this about the American Original's new 9.5" radius:

"This 9.5"-radius fingerboard is slightly flatter than a vintage-style 7.25" radius, providing a comfortable fret-hand feel. Vintage-tall frets make it easier to bend notes without fretting out."


I mean, gosh, I want a comfortable fret- hand feel! And I certainly need to be able to play without choking out!

The simple fact is that when Fender reorganized into the, uh... "exciting" and "dynamic" company with great "synergy" that they are now, they did so in the age of shred. The vintage Fender spec stuff had become old fashioned in the face of Charvel type SuperStrats and whatnot, so they made some tepid steps in that direction, ultimately falling well short of the jumbo fretted 16" radius guitars that Eddie Van Halen and his spawn were gravitating towards.

But at least it gave the new Fender something to talk about, something to market, something to indicate that they weren't the same old boring Fender and certainly not the CBS company anymore.

Problem is, they had this modernized and "improved" product in the American Standard but it was still such a tepid change overall that it in and of itself was a compromise between the vintage specs and modern shredder specs. So they also made out and out shredder guitars, but they also positioned the neu! Fender specs as being superior to the vintage Fender stuff that they were inexplicably still making.

Still making, of course, even though their own text in ads pointed out the supposed deficiencies of their other products. Been a while since I've gone on a Fender rant here, but man, Fender sucks.

And it wasn't accurate, either, but since no one was standing up for the vintage Fender specs including the company that was still making and selling a lot of them, it's no surprise that guitar players will mindlessly repeat the same neu! marketing bullet points that Fender says. "You can't bend on those guitars," you'll see over and over. "And those narrow frets!"

I won't bore you with the endless list of guitar players that did just fine with vintage Fenders, I'll just say that such a body of work really has to tell anyone that if you have an issue with a vintage spec Fender neck, well, the problem is you.

So to me, I find the American Original more amusing that anything else. It's exactly the guitar I hoped they would make, and they did.

It's also bizarre because one gets the idea that Fender just does not really want to make vintage spec'd guitars any more, and they actively market against those guitars, but since their marketing is not accurate or truthful they are still compelled to continue making guitars like they used to because enough people out there know that vintage Fender is great even if Fender themselves don't.

What a weird company. You get the idea sometimes that Fender would like to make certain changes, but they know that a sizable portion of their customer base doesn't want those changes, so they are caught in a weird spot, not wanting to be part of their own past but unable to break away from it.

But the American Original is a fine guitar, I have no doubt. Whatever turmoil wracks the R&D department and the marketing department, it doesn't filter down to the boys and girls that program the computers to make good guitars.
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Re: In defence of the American Original

Post by daysleeperjeff » Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:29 am

I’ve owned just about every reissued Jazzmaster from 1996 onward. The AO Jazzmaster I bought in 2018 was the best by far.

I only sold it because I have a Marauder II replica now that is so perfect I never played the JM. But as far as JM’s go that AO was by far the best reissue I’ve ever owned or played.

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Re: In defence of the American Original

Post by Embenny » Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:18 am

I have to say, it annoys me to no end that people pretend 7.25" radius guitars choke out notes when bent, while simultaneously worshipping guitar heroes who played those guitars.

You really need a flatter radius to pull off those authentic Clapton, Beck, Hendrix, and Gilmour bends. You don't want notes choking out like they did for Clapton, Beck, Hendrix, and Gilmour.
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Re: In defence of the American Original

Post by Powdered Toast Man » Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:50 am

Larry Mal wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:24 am
So to me, I find the American Original more amusing that anything else. It's exactly the guitar I hoped they would make, and they did.

It's also bizarre because one gets the idea that Fender just does not really want to make vintage spec'd guitars any more, and they actively market against those guitars, but since their marketing is not accurate or truthful they are still compelled to continue making guitars like they used to because enough people out there know that vintage Fender is great even if Fender themselves don't.
But they do make Vintage spec guitars still. Fender has been pushing the shit out of Vintera since it launched.

I really am not sure whether we will see a return to an AV line. Why would anyone buy one over a Vintera other than they really want Nitro? I'm actually surprised Fender is sticking to its 4 year product cycles right now given the supply problems that have been constant for the past year. I guess we will see based on the revamp how much confidence they have in the AO specs. If it's minor tweaks then that probably means the line is selling well as is. If it's a major revamp then it'll be Fender changing directions because the AO's failed.

My only complaints with the AO line are the very limited colour options and the poor availability of models at dealers.

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Re: In defence of the American Original

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:03 am

Powdered Toast Man wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:50 am


But they do make Vintage spec guitars still. Fender has been pushing the shit out of Vintera since it launched.
Good point- I guess in my mind I was thinking "vintage spec'd guitars of American make", I could have been more clear. Anyway, the Vintera guitars aren't really designed to be reissues, exactly, since they have polyester finishes and Pau ferro fretboards.

But they certainly are good guitars of vintage specifications as far as I care... and for the record, I don't give a shit about what kind of finish is on my guitar and if Pau ferro isn't as good as rosewood or ebony I'll eat my hat.

Anyway my point wasn't that Fender doesn't make vintage spec'd guitars, because they always do, and they always have. My point was that I've always had the idea that Fender would basically prefer not to, that they wish that the world would have just accepted that their "improvements" of the post-CBS era could have just been "best" once and for all, so that they didn't have to make two versions of their guitars and the weird dichotomy of them having to market their new design against the old design while still making both of them.
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Re: In defence of the American Original

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:07 am

mbene085 wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:18 am
I have to say, it annoys me to no end that people pretend 7.25" radius guitars choke out notes when bent, while simultaneously worshipping guitar heroes who played those guitars.

You really need a flatter radius to pull off those authentic Clapton, Beck, Hendrix, and Gilmour bends. You don't want notes choking out like they did for Clapton, Beck, Hendrix, and Gilmour.
I cannot imagine a group of people more successfully marketed towards other than guitar players.
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.

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Re: In defence of the American Original

Post by JSett » Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:15 am

Larry Mal wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:07 am

I cannot imagine a group of people more successfully marketed towards other than guitar players.
This is probably the most accurate statement I've read in a long long time
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Re: In defence of the American Original

Post by Powdered Toast Man » Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:37 am

Larry Mal wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:03 am
Powdered Toast Man wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:50 am


But they do make Vintage spec guitars still. Fender has been pushing the shit out of Vintera since it launched.
Good point- I guess in my mind I was thinking "vintage spec'd guitars of American make", I could have been more clear. Anyway, the Vintera guitars aren't really designed to be reissues, exactly, since they have polyester finishes and Pau ferro fretboards.

But they certainly are good guitars of vintage specifications as far as I care... and for the record, I don't give a shit about what kind of finish is on my guitar and if Pau ferro isn't as good as rosewood or ebony I'll eat my hat.

Anyway my point wasn't that Fender doesn't make vintage spec'd guitars, because they always do, and they always have. My point was that I've always had the idea that Fender would basically prefer not to, that they wish that the world would have just accepted that their "improvements" of the post-CBS era could have just been "best" once and for all, so that they didn't have to make two versions of their guitars and the weird dichotomy of them having to market their new design against the old design while still making both of them.
Good points. I think I get what you mean about the marketing. They market the flatter board and taller frets on the AO's as "improved/easier playability" then how would they market a change back to vintage spec other than "it's like how it used to be"?

My guess is the AO's will be tweaked in their era specific specs in terms of styling. Currently the 60's Tele is basically the '64 Tele with binding and the aforementioned radius and fret changes. So maybe they'll push more to the transition era aesthetics? AO Jazzmaster is based on the AV65 so maybe they'll push it more to early 60's looks? Dunno. But that's my guess. It'll be mostly cosmetic changes. Maybe they'll flip to different pickups I don't know. Not sure how else they can tweak the lineup without moving even further away from the vintage vibe they're supposed to be channeling.

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