In defence of the American Original

Discussion of newer designs, copies and reissue offset-waist instruments.
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shoule79
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Re: In defence of the American Original

Post by shoule79 » Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:14 pm

Why I haven't bought an American Original JM or Jag:

1) I already have a US made JM and Jag.

2) The AO JM is almost 2K more new than my used AVRI JM a handful of years ago. I get that my JM was used, but around $1000 CDN 7 years ago vs $3000 + after tax today for roughly the same guitar... too rich for my blood and no real incentive to update.

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Powdered Toast Man
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Re: In defence of the American Original

Post by Powdered Toast Man » Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:42 pm

shoule79 wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:14 pm
Why I haven't bought an American Original JM or Jag:

1) I already have a US made JM and Jag.

2) The AO JM is almost 2K more new than my used AVRI JM a handful of years ago. I get that my JM was used, but around $1000 CDN 7 years ago vs $3000 + after tax today for roughly the same guitar... too rich for my blood and no real incentive to update.
The interesting thing is what's happened to used AV and AVRI prices. That AVRI Jag you got years ago would now fetch around $2000 CDN. A used AO is around the $2000 CDN mark as well (depending on the model). I scored a used AO50's Strat a couple months ago for $1500. I paid over $2000 used for my AO60's Jag.

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Re: In defence of the American Original

Post by HNB » Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:16 pm

I think their updates are great. All I tend to care about with Jags and Jazzies is that the tremolo is in the vintage spot. If it has a Mustang bridge with the more narrow spacing like the American Professional line, I love those. I don't really care about fret type or radius, but I like slimmer necks like MIJ Fender necks. I just tend to build my own because it is more personal and I don't do the finish as thick. If I spend over a grand on a guitar, I worry about dinging it or scratching it. When I make it myself, it isn't perfect from the get go, but has more personal feel right away. New guitars just don't seem to move me anymore. They feel kind of sterile and meh. I prefer used guitars that have seen some things. :) Could be a phase though.

I agree with most people here that the new Fender stuff is totally cool. My only wish is for less common colors to come out. I think thin skins did that well. A certain number in many different colors. That way people who want something other than black, white, or burst could get their groove on.
Christopher
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wooderson
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Re: In defence of the American Original

Post by wooderson » Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:38 pm

My AO Jaguar is great, except sunburst is boring (liked the other colors even less) - I occasionally think about sending it off for a refin in charcoal frost with a matching headstock.

I don't see Fender going back to AV specs, more likely they do AO specs but more 1962 (no binding) or 1966 (blocks and binding), or leave them the same with different colors. They can't keep these in stock as it is.

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Re: In defence of the American Original

Post by guitarsammy » Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:37 am

Powdered Toast Man wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:20 am
sunburster wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:06 pm
Powdered Toast Man wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:10 am
The AO Jaguar basically IS the AV65 Jaguar. It doesn't have a modern neck. It still has the 60's C shape and taper. ALL they changed was the fretboard radius to 9.5" and taller frets. That's it.
Well, the AV65 also has a pure nitro finish, with the AO they have a poly undercoat like the older AVRI62s. There is a difference in feel (and eventual wear/aging). I prefer the AV65 over my AVRI62 which also has the poly undercoat.

Also the AO Jags come with the 62 pickups instead of the 65s, for some weird reason.
Maggieo wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:42 pm
It just occurred to me that the AO seems based off of the Dave's Thin Skins.
Just missing that 'thin skin' finish.
They did re-add the poly sealer coat. However the finish on the AO's and the AVRI's is NOT the same. AVRI's were notorious for their thick, sometimes tacky nitro. The AO's are using the reformulated nitro from the AV series. It is much harder and thinner. I've got an 08 Wildwood Thin Skin and the finish on my AO's is thinner and harder than that.

The assumption that the poly sealer basically means they went back to the AVRI finish on the AO's is another of the internet tropes I see.
Absolutely. I have an AO JM, and the finish is *really* thin, and definitely hard as you say. It's dings/chips really easily. Maybe not as much as the KO Marr Jag I had (that was an incredibly delicate finish), but still much more so than a Thin Skin Tele I used to have. I'd put it in the ball park of the AV Tele I had.

Man, I've bought and sold a few guitars.....

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Re: In defence of the American Original

Post by GreenKnee » Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:44 am

wooderson wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:38 pm
My AO Jaguar is great, except sunburst is boring (liked the other colors even less) - I occasionally think about sending it off for a refin in charcoal frost with a matching headstock.

I don't see Fender going back to AV specs, more likely they do AO specs but more 1962 (no binding) or 1966 (blocks and binding), or leave them the same with different colors. They can't keep these in stock as it is.
I had the same issue with my AO Jag. Wonderful guitar but sunburst is boring! Went for a parchment guard to liven it up a little but eventually went for a shell pink refin.

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Re: In defence of the American Original

Post by Mondaysoutar » Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:25 am

I tried an AV65 and an AO when I was on the hunt for a JM, and literally couldn’t tell the difference to be honest. The board radius really has never been noticeable between 9.5 and 7.25 for me. The vintage tall fret wire, I had some issues with, but it’s effectively making me a better player and I didn’t notice it feeling any different compared to the AV65 I tried.

As others have said, I’ve considered a refin and may still go that route, but I couldn’t be much happier with my AO JM. Only changes I’ve made are Staytrem bridge and arm/collet. Last string change I went to Thomastick bebop 12s and it’s as close to perfect as I’ll get it now I think, playing wise.

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shoule79
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Re: In defence of the American Original

Post by shoule79 » Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:16 am

Powdered Toast Man wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:42 pm
shoule79 wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:14 pm
Why I haven't bought an American Original JM or Jag:

1) I already have a US made JM and Jag.

2) The AO JM is almost 2K more new than my used AVRI JM a handful of years ago. I get that my JM was used, but around $1000 CDN 7 years ago vs $3000 + after tax today for roughly the same guitar... too rich for my blood and no real incentive to update.
The interesting thing is what's happened to used AV and AVRI prices. That AVRI Jag you got years ago would now fetch around $2000 CDN. A used AO is around the $2000 CDN mark as well (depending on the model). I scored a used AO50's Strat a couple months ago for $1500. I paid over $2000 used for my AO60's Jag.
I haven't seen an AO used in the wild yet so I can't comment. I haven't seen an AV under $2000 yet, and its been a while since i've seen an AVRI under that mark. The AV65 I can see because there was a good price jump between them and the 62's.

Knowing what they went for originally, and what I paid for them, i'd feel bad selling my AVRI JM or Marr Jag for what they go for today. I get inflation, but my Marr was originally around $1700 new back in 2012/13, and now sells for more than that used, and is still in production (for $25 or $2600 CDN + tax).

If I were buying new today i'd probably get the AM Pro II or a Vintera and be done with it. I don't see the value in these guitars at 3K. If i'm spending that much i'm going to start looking into a luthier build.

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Re: In defence of the American Original

Post by Embenny » Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:57 am

shoule79 wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:16 am
If I were buying new today i'd probably get the AM Pro II or a Vintera and be done with it. I don't see the value in these guitars at 3K. If i'm spending that much i'm going to start looking into a luthier build.
This is where I'm at. I've been selling my factory-built guitars and going the modding/parts build/custom-built route because it's a better value in my eyes.

Only, unlike you, I sold my AV65 JM (and a few others) at market value without remorse.

I don't understand why someone can buy a fully custom, American-made body and neck, custom American-made pickups, nice American-made hardware, and pay a skilled Canadian or American tech to assemble it for cheaper than an American-made Fender that was built with the inherent efficiency of a large factory operation.

You've got to give me some value from that economy of scale beyond an F logo. It used to be that the small shop custom route was inherently more expensive because they understandably have a higher percentage overhead, despite cutting out the retail middleman markup.

Now I can get amazing quality, fully custom parts made at the same price point or cheaper than a factory-built Fender.

Fenders are inherently just interchangeable CNC'd parts with some hand finishing/assembly/setup/QC. If ai can give my money to small builders who have higher wages and produce a final product I like even more, I will.

I understand the appeal of the "off the rack" purchase experience, but between being Canadian and it being a pandemic, there aren't many racks to be trying guitars off of, and frankly never have been in most parts of Canada.
The artist formerly known as mbene085.

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Larry Mal
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Re: In defence of the American Original

Post by Larry Mal » Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:11 pm

If it was me, I'd snap up one of these American Professionals at either $1500 USD new or even better used:

https://www.adorama.com/fe0113092785.ht ... dl-gbase-p

We've already established that the vintage specs don't really mean much and aren't even present on the American Original anyway, so I would essentially be paying for the rhythm circuit I never use.

The American Professional is a pretty solid value at the moment. My man Raphael bought one, they're very good guitars- and he got the 1, the 2 looks even better.
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.

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