Is the unplugged tone important to you?

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soul1
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Is the unplugged tone important to you?

Post by soul1 » Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:47 pm

Wondering what others here think about the unplugged tone of offsets, and if it has any sort of effect on the plugged in tone of the guitar? I don't know much about this stuff, but I do wonder if there is a correlation between the unplugged tone of a guitar and how it ultimately sounds plugged in.

I will say that one of my Jags has a very bright/middy/honky tone plugged in, that is also present when playing unplugged. I'm sure the electronics play the biggest role in the tone, but it's interesting to ponder this.

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Re: Is the unplugged tone important to you?

Post by adamrobertt » Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:52 pm

Nah. I don't think that body wood really matters much at all on a solid body electric. I don't really buy the "tone wood" thing. Maybe for acoustic instruments, but not electric.

It isn't the resonance of the body that is creating the tone on a solid body electric - it's the pickups being induced to create a current by the vibrating strings. If anything, a highly resonant body is a bad thing in this case because it'll just be stealing energy from the strings.

I think of wood as primarily an aesthetic/feel based choice for electric instruments.

People will argue about this until the end of time, and I'm sure I just pissed 50% of people here off, but whatever.

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Re: Is the unplugged tone important to you?

Post by marqueemoon » Fri Jul 16, 2021 4:33 pm

The unplugged tone itself doesn’t matter that much, but it almost always tells me something important about how the guitar will sound plugged in.

I say “not much” because more often than not if I’m at home I often don’t bother plugging in. The guitars that work unplugged get played more and thus get used more because I’m comfortable playing them.

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Re: Is the unplugged tone important to you?

Post by Larry Mal » Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:18 pm

marqueemoon wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 4:33 pm
The unplugged tone itself doesn’t matter that much, but it almost always tells me something important about how the guitar will sound plugged in.

I say “not much” because more often than not if I’m at home I often don’t bother plugging in. The guitars that work unplugged get played more and thus get used more because I’m comfortable playing them.
This is pretty much exactly what I was going to say.

I don't claim that a resonant, acoustic guitar sound necessarily translates through the pickups. But I sure do prefer it to a dead hunk of wood.
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Re: Is the unplugged tone important to you?

Post by Embenny » Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:34 pm

Unplugged tone matters. People just look for differences in the wrong places.

The pickups only pick up what's going on acoustically with the strings. Why does a Jaguar with a floating bridge and vibrato sound different from one with a TOM and stop tailpiece? Why do the same pickups in a 24" scale Jaguar and 25.5" scale Jazzmaster sound different?

The strings are behaving differently, i.e. the acoustic tone is different. A solid body guitar with a sharp attack, quick decay, long scale and ringing behind the bridge will always sound different through an identical pickup than a hollow body guitar with a duller attack, longer decay, short scale and no ringing behind the bridge, etc.

It's not the "tonewood" maple vs rosewood fretboard or alder vs basswood body that accounts for the bulk of those acoustic tonal differences, but rather the overall mechanical properties of the nut, neck, body, and bridge.

If you want a big, fat, warm jazz tone with subtle attack and slow decay but your guitar has a bright, thin tone with quick decay, no pickup swap is going to alter those fundamental properties.

So when I say it matters, I'm talking about that within the spectrum of all electric guitars, not "I want my strat to sound just a touch thicker" which is easily manipulated through electronics. Getting a hollow-body Gretsch with a floating wood bridge and tailpiece to snap and palm mute like a top loader Tele is more what I'm talking about. There are fundamental acoustic properties of the instrument that have a huge influence there.

Similarly, if an Offset is too bright or honky or dull or whatever acoustically, you can look for acoustic solutions. Bridge type/saddle material make a difference. String alloy and winding style makes an even bigger one. Stuff like that.
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Re: Is the unplugged tone important to you?

Post by Larsongs » Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:57 pm

You would think everything matters.. Seems to be the case with most everything.. Whether it does or doesn’t I can’t say with certainty. But, I do know that how it sounds both plugged in & unplugged seems to matter with me..

As mentioned earlier there are times when I will sit & noodle with some of my Guitars unplugged.. And there are some Guitars I won’t.. Those that resonate with great Sound unplugged are the ones I gravitate to.. They are usually also the ones I gravitate to playing plugged in…

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Re: Is the unplugged tone important to you?

Post by soul1 » Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:05 pm

mbene085 wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:34 pm

Similarly, if an Offset is too bright or honky or dull or whatever acoustically, you can look for acoustic solutions. Bridge type/saddle material make a difference. String alloy and winding style makes an even bigger one. Stuff like that.
I'm learning more about the intricacies and idiosyncrasies of offsets, so I'll have to ask what sort of bridges/saddles/strings/windings would you say would have a big tonal effect for an offset? For example, if you have a middy/honky sounding offset, how could one slightly alter that tone specifically with these things?

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Re: Is the unplugged tone important to you?

Post by timtam » Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:55 pm

The physics - as measured from real solid body electric guitars - are relatively clear. The relevance (or otherwise) of the acoustic, unplugged sound is dependent on those physics. A "resonant" solid body electric guitar is one where the vibrations remain in the strings - which is overwhemingly what the majority do. String vibrations are mostly reflected back to the string when they reach the bridge/frets/nut. Which is good, because that's all that the pickups see. The opposite of an acoustic guitar, where vibrations must transfer via the "mobile" bridge to the flexible top plate and air chamber in order to be heard. People who think that the solid body must resonate in a "good" electric guitar make several mistakes: (1) they overestimate the magnitude of the body vibrations they can feel (they're very small), (2) they mistake the actual resonance of the strings for supposed resonance of the body, and (3) they don't understand the Conservation of Energy Law - if the body is vibrating at a particular frequency, those vibrations have been lost from the strings. There is no good evidence for any of the specious notions that have been dreamed up to suggest how body resonance might be important (pickup microphony, feedback of vibrations from the body back to the strings, vibrating pickups). The actual measured science explains all the heard phenomena.
The short version of the science ...
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/su ... 1.348.6822
The long version ...
https://www.gitec-forum-eng.de/2019/08/ ... s-on-line/

Having said that, there is a plethora of things that can subtract specific frequencies from the strings (many of them not well known), and therefore colour the tone. On offsets, that includes the residual string length behind the bridge (which has its own resonant frequency), the low string break angle (which encourages vibrations to pass into that residual length from the main string length), bridge vibrations, the inertia of the trem, etc etc. In very general terms, the neck's resonant modal frequencies tend to be responsible for some low frequency string vibration losses, and the bridge can be responsible for higher frequency losses, where its parts vibrate at air gaps. Strings of course are very important - their intrinsic properties result in faster decay of higher than lower vibration frequencies. That doesn't mean "everything matters". Some things always matter, some things matter sometimes but not always, and other things never matter.

So in answer to the OP's question, the acoustic, unplugged sound only matters to the amplified sound to the extent that ...
(1) it is indicative of the vibrations in the strings (subject to the subtractions mentioned above), because that's what the pickups see.
(2) it is not influenced by things that do not appear in the amplified sound. Which it often is - for example, the acoustic sound waves have been shown to be reflected off/attenuated by (frequency-dependent) the pickguard and top surface, none of which is seen by the pickups (unless they are much more microphonic than any known pickups).
(3) the pickups are not insensitive to a significant range of string vibration frequencies (that is, as all HBs are), nor colours them substantially.
(4) downstream processing does not fundamentally colour the output.

So all in all, the acoustic sound has rather limited importance. However understanding the subtractive nature of components with significant resonant modal frequencies (neck, bridge) can help you influence the way the strings vibrate at those frequencies. Or help you recognize that string vibrations are not the only/key factors in a change you wish to make. What is still difficult - without access to a lab - is to take a guitar and say "that sound you do/don't like is due to <component>. If you change that component to <new component> the sound will change in this predictable way". Significant blame for that state of affairs can be targeted to pickup manufacturers, who fail to publish the full frequency response specifications of their products (measured under standardized conditions) - which leaves people largely in the dark as to what their pickups can/can't do, and thus disparate opinions - "it's all in the pickups" versus "no it's not".
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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Re: Is the unplugged tone important to you?

Post by eggwheat » Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:55 am

From my experience of having owned probably 80 guitars, made of all sort of different materials….playing the guitar acoustically on a solid body instrument tells me nothing about whether the guitar will be good or not, or whether I will like the sound.

I have guitars that sound dead acoustically that sound great amplified, I have plastic guitars that sound better than a guitar made of selected wood material.

I heard an electric guitar with no body at all, that sounded great…ugly as it was.

I would never chose a guitar based on body material, unless it was to do with weight.

So no apart from weight it is not important to me at all.

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Re: Is the unplugged tone important to you?

Post by Flurko » Sat Jul 17, 2021 1:25 am

It's kinda important to me, only in the sense that I spent quite a lot of time playing unplugged electric guitars, as I only plug in an amp if I'm at the rehearsal room or recording on front of the computer. 90% of my couch playing is on an electric guitar, as I only have one acoustic and it's a vintage one that I don't want to bump into random things in my flat.

Once it's plugged in a big amp, I usually forget all about how this particular guitar sounds unplugged!

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Re: Is the unplugged tone important to you?

Post by JVG » Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:57 am

On a slight tangent:

Strings make a massive difference, both acoustically and (especially) electrically. It’s not so much about the gauge, but the materials and geometry of the core/wrap.

I’m always amazed how many people are reluctant to try different strings. A high proportion of guitarists keep buying the same strings they’ve bought for X years, and robotically put them on every guitar. At the same time, they are willing to fork out for pickup swaps, pedals, and even amps without blinking.

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Re: Is the unplugged tone important to you?

Post by bessieboporbach » Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:10 am

mbene085 wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:34 pm

If you want a big, fat, warm jazz tone with subtle attack and slow decay but your guitar has a bright, thin tone with quick decay, no pickup swap is going to alter those fundamental properties.
.
Except virtually all jazz guitars are archtops which have "bright, thin tone with quick decay" acoustically. They are designed to, since that was what a big band rhythm section required. Sticking pickups on these was an adaptation that became a tradition and created the conventional "jazz tone."

I don't completely reject what you say (the same pickup in a short scale guitar will sound different than in a long scale, etc.) but I think you overstate the case.

Listen to Joe Pass' Virtuoso (which is mostly an electric jazz guitar -- an ES-175 -- played acoustically) and tell me again that unplugged tone has any bearing on plugged-in tone when it comes to jazz guitar.

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Re: Is the unplugged tone important to you?

Post by Embenny » Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:51 am

bessieboporbach wrote:
Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:10 am
mbene085 wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:34 pm

If you want a big, fat, warm jazz tone with subtle attack and slow decay but your guitar has a bright, thin tone with quick decay, no pickup swap is going to alter those fundamental properties.
.
Except virtually all jazz guitars are archtops which have "bright, thin tone with quick decay" acoustically. They are designed to, since that was what a big band rhythm section required. Sticking pickups on these was an adaptation that became a tradition and created the conventional "jazz tone."

I don't completely reject what you say (the same pickup in a short scale guitar will sound different than in a long scale, etc.) but I think you overstate the case.

Listen to Joe Pass' Virtuoso (which is mostly an electric jazz guitar -- an ES-175 -- played acoustically) and tell me again that unplugged tone has any bearing on plugged-in tone when it comes to jazz guitar.
Note that I didn't say a traditional hollowbody jazz tone, which has quick decay. That's why I specifically said "subtle attack and slow decay" - those come from a different kind of guitar.

You picked out one word - and the wrong one at that - and then ran off on a tangent.

I've got friends who play jazz fusion where they want the opposite of the traditional tone - very smooth attack and long sustain - so none of them use jazz boxes.
Last edited by Embenny on Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is the unplugged tone important to you?

Post by Ceylon » Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:05 am

Since the question is phrased "for you" I'd say yeah, in the sense that a guitar that sounds good and alive acoustically is always going to feel like a nicer instrument whether or not it has any kind of bearing on it's amplified tone
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Re: Is the unplugged tone important to you?

Post by Larry Mal » Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:45 am

timtam wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:55 pm
The physics - as measured from real solid body electric guitars - are relatively clear. The relevance (or otherwise) of the acoustic, unplugged sound is dependent on those physics. A "resonant" solid body electric guitar is one where the vibrations remain in the strings - which is overwhemingly what the majority do. String vibrations are mostly reflected back to the string when they reach the bridge/frets/nut. Which is good, because that's all that the pickups see. The opposite of an acoustic guitar, where vibrations must transfer via the "mobile" bridge to the flexible top plate and air chamber in order to be heard. People who think that the solid body must resonate in a "good" electric guitar make several mistakes: (1) they overestimate the magnitude of the body vibrations they can feel (they're very small), (2) they mistake the actual resonance of the strings for supposed resonance of the body, and (3) they don't understand the Conservation of Energy Law - if the body is vibrating at a particular frequency, those vibrations have been lost from the strings. There is no good evidence for any of the specious notions that have been dreamed up to suggest how body resonance might be important (pickup microphony, feedback of vibrations from the body back to the strings, vibrating pickups). The actual measured science explains all the heard phenomena.
The short version of the science ...
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/su ... 1.348.6822
The long version ...
https://www.gitec-forum-eng.de/2019/08/ ... s-on-line/

I've seen that a fair amount, and I've read that study that you linked to there. My understanding of this argument is that if the string is making the body vibrate, then somehow that is lost energy that the pickups won't be able to sense later.

And I don't quite accept that.

Firstly, if you are playing a guitar that has a good unplugged sound and comparing it to a guitar that has a bad unplugged sound, it might be that something about the dead guitar is impeding the guitar string from vibrating fully so there is simply less vibration for the guitar pickup to sense overall, which will obviously impede the sound.

For this reason, I want my electric guitars to have a full and resonant sound, so that I can know that the guitars are generating the full frequency of what the string is producing.

Secondly, if the string is vibrating fully then I have a hard time seeing how a pickup located a few millimeters away and creating a magnetic field isn't going to capture that. I don't have my own study to produce or anything, and I won't bother, but it certainly does run directly contrary to my own experience.

For that matter, no high impedance pickup captures the string's vibration fully or completely accurately anyway, they all have that resonant peak around 3-6 kHz which is in effect an EQ boost there, followed by what is in effect a sloping low pass filter.

So while I always want to hear a full and vibrant acoustic sound, it's mainly because it's a way I can be assured that the guitar is as good as it can be, it tells me that none of the hardware components on there is preventing the string from vibrating to its full degree when I engage it. And while I've read that study and feel I have some understanding of it, the idea that a resonant electric guitar somehow translates into less signal being outputted simply doesn't correspond with anything I've heard in the real world.

In short, I've bold faced your quote above, but while I never claim that a resonant body is necessarily feeding back into the pickup (which only senses string vibration), the fact remains that a good acoustic tone tells me that the strings are vibrating fully and energetically, which is a very important factor in any guitar.
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