Anyone gotten a Black Bobbin Jazzmaster?

[adamrobertt]

Interesting debate. Not sure where I stand on the "Fender are partscasters" debate. I see the rationale behind it, but Fender are the original, the template, and since everything is done in house, it's not really the same thing, even though their guitars are made from a collection of parts. A bit different to sourcing a load of parts from different manufacturers and 'rolling your own', so to speak.

Anyway, I was under the impression Black Bobbin pickups were very expensive but they're only a tiny bit more expensive than regular Lollars and actually cheaper than Novak...

I kind of see both sides of the argument. And as usual I don't quite understand the "forum vitriol" against the guy - some over the top melodramatic reactions in here imo.

Seems to be a nice guitar and actually pretty reasonably priced for what it is - he's obviously trying to slot in just above a USA Fender but beneath the big boutique guys. Makes sense to me, and sort of also explains his process.

Buy one or don't I guess?

[JSett]

I kind of see both sides of the argument. And as usual I don't quite understand the "forum vitriol" against the guy - some over the top melodramatic reactions in here imo.

I don't think anyone has been particularly vitriolic towards Shelby (I already said I know him to be a nice and knowledgeable dude). I think the price is a little high, sure, but no anger about it.

I do get wound-up when people dig their heels in when they're clearly wrong about something though. That's just infantile.

[Unicorn Warrior]

I don’t mind the headstock. That’s all I came to say. I’m sure they’re setup and play and sound very well.

[garyptaszek]

I kind of see both sides of the argument. And as usual I don't quite understand the "forum vitriol" against the guy - some over the top melodramatic reactions in here imo.

I don't think anyone has been particularly vitriolic towards Shelby (I already said I know him to be a nice and knowledgeable dude). I think the price is a little high, sure, but no anger about it.

I do get wound-up when people dig their heels in when they're clearly wrong about something though. That's just infantile.

Especially after opening up a discussion...

[wooderson]

I don't think anyone has been particularly vitriolic towards Shelby (I already said I know him to be a nice and knowledgeable dude). I think the price is a little high, sure, but no anger about it.

"Scam" and the weird "not a builder" stuff on the very first page, when the latter was never a claim made by anyone?

I do get wound-up when people dig their heels in when they're clearly wrong about something though. That's just infantile.

Wrong about what? You just don't seem to like the association of "partscaster" with the way assembly lines work. You're still making a distinction without a difference. "Well Fender machines made their pickguards" vs. "Brand X bought the pickguards from somewhere else" is truly a thing that does not matter (unless you're invested in Fender for Fender's sake).

[JSett]

Wrong about what? You just don't seem to like the association of "partscaster" with the way assembly lines work.

Your mom.

[wooderson]

Interesting debate. Not sure where I stand on the "Fender are partscasters" debate. I see the rationale behind it, but Fender are the original, the template, and since everything is done in house, it's not really the same thing, even though their guitars are made from a collection of parts. A bit different to sourcing a load of parts from different manufacturers and 'rolling your own', so to speak.

It's not the way "partscaster" is usually used but in the way things work, there's no meaningful difference. Parts bins are parts bins.

Fender being the original and template matters to many people in a sort of metaphysical sense but if you're not one of them, parts being sourced in-house or outside has no bearing on the final product.

Specifically my point is in reference to the (as was stated here) argument that small Fender builders are just doing 'partscasters' and thus aren't worth asking price X - but all they're doing is exactly what Fender does, including the $4500+ Custom Shop stuff. Getting your body from Wildwood or Guitar Mill vs. getting one from the body routing room 500 feet away - who cares?

[tamerofbantha]

if U wanna give money to someone named Shelby's make sure it's a stripper first. i rest my case muthalicker

[Zeus]

I do get wound-up when people dig their heels in when they're clearly wrong about something though. That's just infantile.

As an impartial observer, I don't think wooderson is clearly 'wrong' about anything here; you simply have different views about the definition of 'partscaster', a pretty vague term at best.

The discussion was pretty respectful and moderate until you came out with this on pg 1, which to my eyes is needlessly antagonistic (and dare I say it, infantile):

You've clearly got a hard-on for these things and are defending them to the death with flawed logic.

...

Do you even know the definition of a Partscaster? I'm not sure you do.

It really doesn't matter.

The guitars are the guitars and people can buy them if they want.

I don't think anyone's getting scammed here.

[andy_tchp]

Better than the stuff from Nash I guess?

[Powdered Toast Man]

Has anyone here arguing about Fender being "partscasters" and "CNC machined" been on a tour of the Fender factory in Corona? Or Ensenada? I have been to both. There is a LOT of manual shaping work and other manual work done to manufacture Fender guitars. I was surprised how much manual work was involved for being "factory run-of-the-mill" guitars.
As for Shelby Pollard, that's the guy that says the Staytrem bridge is only a cosmetic improvement (so drill your guitar for Mastery thimbles and buy a Mastery bridge, and coffee, from him).
The points about the "art" pickguard and horrible headstock choice have been made already, but I agree with them.

Yep, I've been on the Corona CA factory tour. I too was amazed at how much is done in house. Basically EVERYTHING except for the tuning machines is made by Fender in the Corona CA facility for their USA made instruments. I watched the ladies stamping bridges on the original giant green press machine and individually sanding the bevel on the pickguards that had just been cut. Walked past the pickup winders. The stacks of body and neck blanks. The workers hand sanding the bodies. Pressing in the frets.

They said that each instrument coming out of that factory has about 70 people touch it from start to finish.

So, is Fender just slapping together a bunch of parts they got from various suppliers and then doing a final setup? No.

[wooderson]

So, is Fender just slapping together a bunch of parts they got from various suppliers and then doing a final setup? No.

From various suppliers, no. Not sure why that matters, still. Other companies often make better parts than Fender. That’s why we have Lollar and Spitfire and Staytrem and etc.

As for “slapping together,” I don’t think anyone said that, but it’s also not true of small builders (and, uh, in my experience less true). They are still assemblages of parts built separately - the only difference is who owns the various machines. I’d rather have my Staytrems than a Fender vintage bridge or Marr, personally.

[Powdered Toast Man]

So, is Fender just slapping together a bunch of parts they got from various suppliers and then doing a final setup? No.

From various suppliers, no. Not sure why that matters, still. Other companies often make better parts than Fender. That’s why we have Lollar and Spitfire and Staytrem and etc.

As for “slapping together,” I don’t think anyone said that, but it’s also not true of small builders (and, uh, in my experience less true). They are still assemblages of parts built separately - the only difference is who owns the various machines. I’d rather have my Staytrems than a Fender vintage bridge or Marr, personally.

Better by what metric? Different, maybe. Better?

I can also slap a bunch of aftermarket parts on my car. Same difference.

[wooderson]

Better by what metric? Different, maybe. Better?

I can also slap a bunch of aftermarket parts on my car. Same difference.

It's a guitar, there is nothing objective at hand. The historical market in offsets indicates that there are aftermarket parts widely considered superior and preferable.

The vintage style bridge is such a PITA it kept people away from offsets for decades, lead to the godawful Buzz Stop and eventually Fender got around to copying a better design - and only because their signature guitarist for the model wanted it. (Then they screwed up on the first pass on copying the design and made the string spacing too wide.)

Here's the tort guard on a $4250+tax Custom Shop Fender:


Vs.



Pure Vintage pickups are fine but they're the only vintage-style pickup you can get on a stock Jazzmaster and Novak/Lollar/Seymour Duncan wouldn't be in business if people didn't find value in them.

So, yeah, I'm not sure how gathering good parts from multiple manufacturers is supposed to be a negative compared to in-house production. If you're prone to swapping parts it pretty much just skips a few steps, doesn't it?

If the ideal guitar exists for you from Fender, great! Nothing wrong with Fenders - but the name and production style provide no more value over someone else doing it, in my opinion.

Even in terms of bodies and necks, one of the $2500 American Original Jazzmasters that's actually available right now is 8# 10oz - that's a hog for a JM.

[pscates]

The vintage style bridge is such a PITA it kept people away from offsets for decades, lead to the godawful Buzz Stop and eventually Fender got around to copying a better design - and only because their signature guitarist for the model wanted it. (Then they screwed up on the first pass on copying the design and made the string spacing too wide.)

Just so I'm clear, is this Johnny Marr we're talking about? He was using Staytrem (better design, an improved Mustang type bridge), Fender mimicked the overall design it but stayed at 55mm vs. the Staytrem's 52mm, etc.?

Kinda funny that Staytrem based their design on an existing Fender thing, greatly improving it on several fronts. Then when Fender went to copy it - a third-party bridge already based on their own design to start with - they missed one of the things that made the Staytrem an improvement. Nobody at Fender had some calipers? Is that not one of the first things you'd check?

"Hmmm...seems to be about a 3mm difference here. Maybe that's why he prefers the other? I suppose we could just ask him...".