I think I've had it...

[crazyzeke]

Because I'm a bit OCD (ok maybe more than a bit) My Classic Player JM is bothering me.

As a few people have already said, they never should have moved the vibrato plate closer to the bridge. The improvement of break angle doesn't fix the bridge problems when using round wounds completely. What it does instead is compromise the offset tone, in my experience more so than using a Buzz Stop on an offset with the vibrato plate in the regular position closer to the bottom bout strap button. That vibrato plate is integral to the offset core tone no matter what - if you move the plate, you lose it. If you fit a Gibson style stoptail and bridge, you lose it. It survives even when you heavily mod an offset, as I have done. I've tried maybe half a dozen CP JMs and Jags at this point, all stock off the peg in guitar stores, and they don't have the same mojo. I've even owned one of the Jaguar Special HH in black/chrome, and it was one of the dullest guitars I've had - no character of it's own whatsoever.

I just really wanted to come in and give a huge thank you for this comment. I had tried both 8mm and 10mm length m8 screws in the past - both of those definitely needed springs or they would fall into the body under the inserts. I got another mixed set of grub screws the other day that included a 16mm length, and put those into one of my guitars. The notes vibrate through the whole body and the guitar just has so much more harmonic complexity now. Such an obvious thing that never occurred to me. Thank you again. This made a world of difference.

You're right; it is good advice. Anything that increases the size of the contact points of the bridge to the body will increase sustain and thicken tone on offsets. My quick solution for this years ago which has worked surprisingly well was fit VGA plug mounting screws from an old dead GPU to the bottom of the Mastery bridge as for some reason the thread gauge is a perfect match. This was originally done to stop bridge sinking as even on the Mastery I was paranoid it'd sink during a gig (I've had both stock and Mustang bridges slip on their original grub screws which you usually don't notice until you play a solo and suddenly every time you bend a string even a tone it chokes out, super embarrassing).



See those little spring-loaded screw plugs on either side of the blue port? Those are on my Mastery bridge inside the Jag, sitting on the bridge thimbles, and have been for like 15 years .

I feel perhaps sugarandopium's suggestion is better. Mine means you can't adjust the action without taking out the bridge, not that I ever need to do that (it's pretty low as the neck is shimmed).

[alexpigment]

As a few people have already said, they never should have moved the vibrato plate closer to the bridge. The improvement of break angle doesn't fix the bridge problems when using round wounds completely. What it does instead is compromise the offset tone, in my experience more so than using a Buzz Stop on an offset with the vibrato plate in the regular position closer to the bottom bout strap button. That vibrato plate is integral to the offset core tone no matter what - if you move the plate, you lose it. If you fit a Gibson style stoptail and bridge, you lose it. It survives even when you heavily mod an offset, as I have done. I've tried maybe half a dozen CP JMs and Jags at this point, all stock off the peg in guitar stores, and they don't have the same mojo. I've even owned one of the Jaguar Special HH in black/chrome, and it was one of the dullest guitars I've had - no character of it's own whatsoever.

I can say in my experience that the loss of the "offset tone" in the examples above is related the TOM/AOM. That's the only thing in common with the models you mentioned. If you put a standard style bridge on a guitar with the closer trem, it sounds fairly identical to one with the standard spacing. Of course, the lower you can get the bridge, the more you get those behind-the-bridge vibrations, and reverse shimming helps this immensely. I've said it a million times on this forum, but the trem placement is not the issue. It's the fact that they angled the neck pocket so heavily; you don't need a break angle so high on *both* sides of the bridge.

[crazyzeke]

I can say in my experience that the loss of the "offset tone" in the examples above is related the TOM/AOM. That's the only thing in common with the models you mentioned. If you put a standard style bridge on a guitar with the closer trem, it sounds fairly identical to one with the standard spacing. Of course, the lower you can get the bridge, the more you get those behind-the-bridge vibrations, and reverse shimming helps this immensely. I've said it a million times on this forum, but the trem placement is not the issue. It's the fact that they angled the neck pocket so heavily; you don't need a break angle so high on *both* sides of the bridge.

Interesting theory, and definitely ⏸🧠 pause for thought. I'd always assumed moving the vibrato plate was the main source of the problem - Classic Players just don't have the same kinda deal going on.

[sugarandopium]

You don’t even need the springs, just m8 that are long enough will get you there.

I just really wanted to come in and give a huge thank you for this comment. I had tried both 8mm and 10mm length m8 screws in the past - both of those definitely needed springs or they would fall into the body under the inserts. I got another mixed set of grub screws the other day that included a 16mm length, and put those into one of my guitars. The notes vibrate through the whole body and the guitar just has so much more harmonic complexity now. Such an obvious thing that never occurred to me. Thank you again. This made a world of difference.

Sweet.
You’re very welcome.

Really makes the CP come alive.

[superficial]

But I think this possibly highlights something? That is: if you have a traditionally placed trem but your guitar is set up with strings and a bridge height such that the behind the bridge course of strings doesn’t get close to an equal temperament note, then you’re not going to get much from back there?

Are there any physicists about who can pitch in?

This is an interesting thought and I'm sure you're correct. You'll get harmonic resonance (in the physics sense) if the length behind the bridge is (close to) a multiple of the string vibration frequency. I.e. if the behind-the-bridge note is an octave / 5th / 4th / maj 3rd compared to the string note, it'll resonate far more readily than if it's another note lower down the 'harmonic series'.

How you could effect a change in that would be really complex. If you're trying to intonate the behind-the-bridge strings, the string length differences will be minuscule. I doubt you could 'force' a setup for that to work well - there are simply too many variables and distances tiny. But if you stumble upon a setup that works (like ainm has), it might make the whole guitar resonate more (for better or worse!).

String choice shouldn't affect this (unless neck relief needs to change with change in string gauge) but the bridge height / break angle / shim setup etc will all have an impact. And obviously the trem positioning vs bridge.

Interesting thought process. I need to check the behind the bridge notes on my offsets!

[crazyzeke]

Behind the bridge is insane, I love having the option. Although it can make for challenging moments - I wrote a song with a capo on 3ᴿᴰ fret with the guitar detuned to Eb and that made the key of an E minor 7, F# minor 7. In this half step down tuning I found that about four of the twelve possible behind the bridge lengths I can play, literally made root, minor third, fifth of a nearly perfectly in tune F# minor to go with the chord. I incorporated these behind the bridge picking notes as part of the opening riff which sounded awesome. Sadly when I retuned the guitar to standard pitch, obviously the capo now has to be on the 2ᴺᴰ fret and the notes/harmonics of the behind the bridge lengths are different. The E and A string ones kinda work but they're not as close to in-tune as before.

I swear I've used the behind the bridge lengths with the guitar tuned to literal nonsense (as in if you tried to play fretted notes it would sound atonal and awful) to make a resonant behind the bridge chord and overdubbed this as background foley on songs before. If I could I'd write a two or three chord song and do overdubs with the guitar tuned two or three different ways to match the chords and changes, although that would be a nightmare in terms of time.

[RavenCrest]

So after much consideration, I've come to a decision. I reached out to Dustin at BloomDoom and let me tell ya, this dude is SPOT ON with his promptness and responses. I've decided against the LPB and opted to make a replica (to the best of my memory) of the '59 JM that was stolen from me 25+ years ago. Numerous emails back and forth and HOURS scouring google images for the right combination of relic'ing to make a facsimile of that lost guitar damn near brings a tear to my eye. My goal was to keep it under $500 for this and with all the work Dustin's gonna do I'll be just under it. At least for the body. I will then be able to transfer the neck, all the hardware and electronics and put them on the new body. I'll need to source a new bridge (Mustang probably?) and thimbles and the appropriate tort guard so yea I'll be in this guitar more than a reasonable amount but the goal is to keep the piece not hope for a profitable or even a break-even condition when I sell it. I ain't sellin this one. I'll keep y'all posted as I get more info. If anyone has spare bits I'll need, HMU