Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

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DeathJag
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Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by DeathJag » Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:57 am

Just swapped bridges a week ago. I love the feel of it and the sound, but then I started to hear sounds I didn’t like. Those sounds were strings going out of tune while I was playing. Often it’s a few cents sharp, enough to bug the shit put of me. It seems worse on the wound strings, but the high strings go out as well. With the mastery bridge that never happened, not even a single time. I know that sounds utterly batty but it’s true. This is a 2005 AVRI jag with .013 - .056 strings. The guitar was set up by a professional with these strings and a Mastery bridge.

I use to be able to dive bomb all day, and also pull back strong enough to pull the whole guitar off my body, and it never went out of tune.

Does anyone have any techniques or tips for me? What I did was physically push the bridge as far back towards the trem as possible. I felt it move a millimeter or so. Then I dive bomb and pull up a few times, then tune it. The tuning holds for a few pushes on the arm, then strings start going sharp.

I hope this is not a limitation of the bridge, because I love how it feels.

Dan

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HarlowTheFish
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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by HarlowTheFish » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:41 am

It's important to keep it centered in the thimbles, because with a rocking bridge you want movement both ways. You also generally want a higher bridge (so you might need to shim) to keep the strings gripping the saddle to make sure it moves away from center when you use the trem, then back when you let go. On a Mastery, you'll generally want the opposite to reduce friction.

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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by DeathJag » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:59 am

Ok copy that I will keep it centered, thanks! It is shimmed with a .5” stewmac shim. I had to raise the Staytrem higher than the Mastery because the low E was buzzing, and I like the height it is now. How would I know if the bridge needs to get taller?

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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by timtam » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:21 am

For the strings to grip the saddles and move the rocking bridge fully back/forth with trem use (back to exactly the centred position it started from), you indeed require high string-saddle friction. High friction comes from high string downforce on the bridge. Downforce comes from string tension and string break angle. So higher gauge strings and/or higher break angle. You're already using higher gauge strings, so you need higher break angle. So I would move up to the next shim (1 deg total should probably do it). That will then require a higher bridge, and thus greater string break angle.

Of course you should never lubricate the string grooves on the saddles of a rocking bridge (ignore what Fender says), or you destroy that friction.
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by DeathJag » Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:21 am

Hey thanks for the details! I guess I was dumb to think that my process would center the bridge. So I take it one’s eyes are the best tools to center the thing? That seemed iffy, but then I also have bad eyes. But how do you know if it’s right in the middle, and also exactly parallel to the trem bar thingee? (The piece with the string holes.) I mean I could always try a ruler. I have the next largest shim, 1 DEGREE not inch haha!

And for sure I will never lubricate!

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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by HarlowTheFish » Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:05 pm

To get it centered, you pretty much just eyeball it so it's parallel to the top of the pickguard. If your body is well-made, and everything is lined up (which it should be), that'll be plenty close enough to centered.

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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by Severed Hand » Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:58 pm

Or you can get the non rocking bridge posts. I use the tremolo with them on and admit I’m probably creating grooves in the bridge but it works for me. When I first got one it drove me crazy and since I haven’t had any issues.

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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by CorporateDisguise » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:08 am

With my rocking bridges, I tend to put 2 wraps electrical tape around the legs. It keeps the bridge from falling to either extreme where it is more likely to get stuck, but still has enough movement that the strings aren’t moving on the saddles.

I find this to be more important with bridges that have shims or a neck angle, as you tend to raise the bridge a bit higher, which slightly increases the movement range. The skinnier part of the leg(the screw part) has a higher chance of moving in the bottom of the cup, which in turn will wedge the bridge in a different position.

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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by timtam » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:02 pm

I appreciate that people sometimes struggle to get the rocking bridge working well (it doesn't always arrive that way from the factory). But I am not a fan of wrapping the posts. That disrupts the consistent string-friction-driven rocking mechanics, as they were designed to work. Increasing the chances that with trem use you will get mixed, stick-slip friction and incomplete motion of the bridge back and forwards. The strings only partially grip/move the saddles as they should - in the free movement range - but also partially have to try to slide over the saddles, when post movement is blocked by the wrapping. Just as they would if the (non-wrapped) freely rocking bridge posts hit the walls of the thimbles (which they should not do). On the other hand (the plus side) you've also at least partly minimized the extent of the problem created, by restricting how far the bridge can actually move out of position as a result of that abnormal, incomplete rocking. But if you really don't want a rocking bridge you might as well just convert to a fixed bridge like Mastery or a roller TOM. Which then requires low string-saddle friction (so the strings can slide over the fixed saddles), from lower string downforce; therefore lower bridge (lower break angle), less neck shim, lower string gauges (tension).

Of course Fender have done something similar to wrapping with the nylon anti-rocking bushings they put in the thimbles on the American Pro's Mustang-style rocking bridge. It's never been clear why that was done. Of course they have also put TOM/AOM high-friction, fixed bridges on some models, and moved the trem closer to the bridge (mimicing a buzzstop, which creates string forces that push the bridge forward). One wonders at times if they really understand Leo's intended mechanics. Because those are all old, largely inappropriate "fixes" from the time some decades ago when guitar techs didn't understand how to make the rocking bridge work (it's all pretty much in Leo's patent filed in 1958). And their "solution" was to try to stop it rocking.

If you have freely moving posts and the right high string-saddle friction, trem use should cause the bridge to rock completely forward/back to where it started - changing position to exactly the same extent that the strings have changed length, and returned to their starting length. Because the bridge moves with the strings.
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by DeathJag » Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:27 am

So I grabbed the thing and moved it all the way forward and backward to get a feel for the range, then used the pick guard to line it up in the middle.

Tuning was much much better, but still not quite as stable as with the Mastery. Maybe I need to shim that additional .5 degrees!

Man do I love the feel of this thing! Those staggered saddles just rule, I love having the strings at their own height.

Thanks a million for the help everyone!

Dan Izen

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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by timtam » Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:20 pm

DeathJag wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:57 am
I use to be able to dive bomb all day, and also pull back strong enough to pull the whole guitar off my body, and it never went out of tune.
This did make me wonder if there are extra considerations if you want to really dive bomb that much. I don't have much experience with that. Maybe a (low) fixed Mastery is a "safer" setup for that ?? Or similarly is that where the Am Pro's nylon anti-rocking bushings might actually become useful - to keep the rocking bridge from straying too far from its centre position even under extreme provocation ? If the strings change length by so much, they might carry a free rocking bridge to the point where its posts hit the thimble walls (which should not normally happen), forcing a break in the string's grip on the saddle. Also, if the strings become very slack, string-saddle grip may similarly be lost. If so, the bridge cannot return to the centre position when the string grips it again on its return journey.

Other dive bombers have any thoughts on this ?
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by HarlowTheFish » Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:25 pm

timtam wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:20 pm
This did make me wonder if there are extra considerations if you want to really dive bomb that much. I don't have much experience with that. Maybe a (low) fixed Mastery is a "safer" setup for that ?? Or similarly is that where the Am Pro's nylon anti-rocking bushings might actually become useful - to keep the rocking bridge from straying too far from its centre position even under extreme provocation ? If the strings change length by so much, they might carry a free rocking bridge to the point where its posts hit the thimble walls (which should not normally happen), forcing a break in the string's grip on the saddle. Also, if the strings become very slack, string-saddle grip may similarly be lost. If so, the bridge cannot return to the centre position when the string grips it again on its return journey.

Other dive bombers have any thoughts on this ?
Not on a JM trem, but the general principle checks out for my Mustang. If I want crazy dives, I need to pull the bridge all the way back, but then I can't pull up or it'll go out of tune. Ditto but reversed for pulling up. If the bridge is in the middle, I have to be more mindful of the trem range or it won't come back properly centered, so I need to do that Strat trick of diving/pulling up on the trem quickly just to get it back into place.

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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by Aleksandr_khru » Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:53 am

Explain, please.
I understand the floating bridge principle and the need for friction on the saddles, but it is not clear if the tuning will return to the desired tone with single-string bends? In this case, friction will interfere, or does the technique of playing with a floating bridge prevent the use of bends?

Or does the friction there have to be so strong that the string does not slide over the saddle during the bends? I think this is not possible, or it must be a locking bridge))) (I thought about this design)

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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by HarlowTheFish » Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:39 am

Aleksandr_khru wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:53 am
Explain, please.
I understand the floating bridge principle and the need for friction on the saddles, but it is not clear if the tuning will return to the desired tone with single-string bends? In this case, friction will interfere, or does the technique of playing with a floating bridge prevent the use of bends?

Or does the friction there have to be so strong that the string does not slide over the saddle during the bends? I think this is not possible, or it must be a locking bridge))) (I thought about this design)
It'll move a bit between bends, same as something like a floating Strat trem or a Floyd -- way less than when you use the trem proper, and it should come back to center if it's set up right.

The idea is that, on a rocking bridge, you have enough downforce that when you use the trem, the strings are able to pull and push the bridge forward or backward as you use the trem. On a fixed bridge, you want as little downforce and friction as you can get, so the strings are able to run over the saddles without catching. Rocking is a bit finickier to set up, and has a couple of quirks (eg. like palm muting on a Floyd, you need to have a slightly more controlled touch so you don't knock it out of place), but that's how they were originally designed and it's part of the offset trem feel.

You're making an RSD clone, right? Those IIRC are a non-rocking design, so you want a lower angle and less downforce. I've got a Mustang with a rocking bridge and an AmPro rocking bridge sitting around for a build, so if you want some pics or something just PM me on here.

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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by Aleksandr_khru » Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:30 am

Thank you, of course I forgot that the tremolo and the bridge are not fixed and also floats when bending.
But I also think that the overall movement of the bridge when bending is less than the change in the length of one string and the tuning(on this string) can still change noticeably.
Unfortunately, I don't have a floating bridge guitar right now to test it, and I hope I'm wrong and there is no such problem.
Thanks for the hint on the RSD bridge, I was sure that it was floating. Very odd choice of top saddle shape (sharp), not conducive to low friction.
Quite a long time ago I bought used a squier vm jaguar with a fixed bridge, installed a tremolo and a floating bridge (hosco japan) on it, I really liked the feel of this tremolo, but the workmanship is just disgusting, clicks when using, not an accurate fit of the arm, in general rubbish.
For several years I have been repairing guitars, but only once a Mustang was brought to me for repair. And never a jaguar or jazzmaster. Here these are rare guitars.
Now this is a hobby for me, and I decided to make for myself a jaguar, jazzmaster and cyclone, and in search of information I ended up on this wonderful forum.
Thanks for the tips!

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