Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

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RocknRollShakeUp
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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by RocknRollShakeUp » Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:04 pm

Aleksandr_khru wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:30 am
Thank you, of course I forgot that the tremolo and the bridge are not fixed and also floats when bending.
But I also think that the overall movement of the bridge when bending is less than the change in the length of one string and the tuning(on this string) can still change noticeably.
Unfortunately, I don't have a floating bridge guitar right now to test it, and I hope I'm wrong and there is no such problem.
Thanks for the hint on the RSD bridge, I was sure that it was floating. Very odd choice of top saddle shape (sharp), not conducive to low friction.
Quite a long time ago I bought used a squier vm jaguar with a fixed bridge, installed a tremolo and a floating bridge (hosco japan) on it, I really liked the feel of this tremolo, but the workmanship is just disgusting, clicks when using, not an accurate fit of the arm, in general rubbish.
For several years I have been repairing guitars, but only once a Mustang was brought to me for repair. And never a jaguar or jazzmaster. Here these are rare guitars.
Now this is a hobby for me, and I decided to make for myself a jaguar, jazzmaster and cyclone, and in search of information I ended up on this wonderful forum.
Thanks for the tips!
I didn’t read the whole thread so sorry if I’m being being redundant or irrelevant, but I want to confirm that the RSD does float, at least mine does.

Also The little nibs in the saddle slots are great. They anchor the strings in there via increased friction, especially the wound strings, and allows the bridge to float back and forth and yet always return to it’s set/center position.

If a bridge has lower friction saddles and the strings slip, and then grab, the bridge will eventually be pulled out of position. This is exacerbated by low neck angles and lighter strings.

If the neck angle is low and the string down force on the saddles is relatively low, one is better off having a non floating Mastery with its low saddle friction set up.

For floating bridges, high string downforce and friction across the saddles is best.

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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by DeathJag » Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:52 pm

Just to report back I have had much better luck, much much better, but it is still not as stable as the mastery was. It must be the divebombing; I don’t pull sharp very often. Usually it is the strings going slightly sharp, which tells me it is happening when I’m doing a downward bend. I guess I mean a dive bomb. I do love that effect, and I wish there was someway to get the range a strat has for em! Now it stays in tune 90% - 95% of the time, before it was about 10%. But it has only been a few days. Tomorrow is our first full band practice in almost a year, and we will see how the tuning holds up for that!

Even just from playing with it a few days, I am already kind of used to the retuning. It is always the same amount. I wish it were going flat instead of sharp because that would make that motion really quick.

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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by timtam » Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:29 pm

Aleksandr_khru wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:53 am
Explain, please.
I understand the floating bridge principle and the need for friction on the saddles, but it is not clear if the tuning will return to the desired tone with single-string bends? In this case, friction will interfere, or does the technique of playing with a floating bridge prevent the use of bends?

Or does the friction there have to be so strong that the string does not slide over the saddle during the bends? I think this is not possible, or it must be a locking bridge))) (I thought about this design)
On a single-string bend you have the string saddle-friction from five stationary strings acting to hold the rocking bridge in place, while the one bent string will either (1) change length only within its speaking length (if its string-saddle friction is high enough), or (2) will be forced to slide over the saddles (and nut) if the bend force is enough to pull "extra" string into the bend from the "residual" lengths, post-saddle and and post-nut; and then return to its original length after the bend.

All in all I don't see bends as presenting a major challenge to tuning stability when rocking bridges are set up according to the standard principles. Maybe fortunately, bendy blues rock and jaguars/jazzmasters are not natural bedfellows. But even Tom Verlaine bent the odd string (eg in Marquee Moon solo).

Re the notion of a locking bridge, a locking/rocking design would be an interesting development. It would obviate the need for high string-saddle friction to ensure rocking operation.
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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by HarlowTheFish » Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:17 pm

timtam wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:29 pm
The notion of a locking bridge, a locking/rocking design would be an interesting development. It would obviate the need for high string-saddle friction to ensure rocking operation.
Wouldn't even be that hard, honestly -- a Mustang saddle design where the saddles are a bit taller, the grooves are a bit deeper, and you have an off-center locking screw per saddle is pretty simple and would do the trick. The issue then is making sure that you're not losing range because of the limited range of motion on the bridge, because that might actually cause problems with pushing the posts out of their proper centered position on the bottom of the thimbles. You'd probably want those slightly bigger and maybe slightly deeper, with posts that are a better fit for the bottom, kinda like a ball-joint type of thing, which is where it gets a bit tricky.
RocknRollShakeUp wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:04 pm

I didn’t read the whole thread so sorry if I’m being being redundant or irrelevant, but I want to confirm that the RSD does float, at least mine does.
My bad then, I could have sworn I've heard a lot of talk about them being fixed.

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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by Aleksandr_khru » Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:23 am

RocknRollShakeUp wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:04 pm
I didn’t read the whole thread so sorry if I’m being being redundant or irrelevant, but I want to confirm that the RSD does float, at least mine does.
Thank you! If the RSD bridge is floating, then the shape of the saddles is really correct.

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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by Maggieo » Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:34 am

Hey gang,

I put a S/T bridge on my CV Jazzmaster, and it wants to pitch back, making the strings come in contact with the front of the bridge. Any ideas for fixing it? I told S/T what I was putting it in, and was assured it was the right bridge for the CV.

Shim the neck more, for more downward pressure? Tape? Surgical tubing? Calling in Agatha Harkness?

Oh, and the AVRI trem on it got weird when I put the S/T arm assembly on it. The lock button is damn near locked, there's that weird catch with a click going on...
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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by JSett » Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:49 am

Maggieo wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:34 am
Hey gang,

I put a S/T bridge on my CV Jazzmaster, and it wants to pitch back, making the strings come in contact with the front of the bridge. Any ideas for fixing it? I told S/T what I was putting it in, and was assured it was the right bridge for the CV.

Shim the neck more, for more downward pressure? Tape? Surgical tubing? Calling in Agatha Harkness?

Oh, and the AVRI trem on it got weird when I put the S/T arm assembly on it. The lock button is damn near locked, there's that weird catch with a click going on...
The one in my '67 Jag does the 'pitch back' thing. After a short while playing it's laying back having a rest at this angle / - like James Dean leaning against a wall smoking a cigarette. Looking cool...

...but out of tune.

I couldn't find a way to stop it so in the end set everything up around it so the strings wouldn't foul and intonated at that extremity of its movement. I rarely pitch up on the vibrato so it's not too much of an issue for me.

YMMV / "I am not an attorney and this post is for entertainment purposes only. Please consult a licensed attorney in your state for legal advice." / Etc etc
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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by DeathJag » Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:13 pm

I still have those on my guitars, but it does pull the strings sharp after a full dive bomb where the tip hits the body. Kind of sucks but I really like how it feels and sounds so I’m keeping it. One thing I do is wiggle the heck out of that bar and then tune. That seems to keep it stable longer. But it always goes sharp. It does sit pretty much 90 degrees to the body though.

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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by timtam » Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:29 pm

Maggieo wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:34 am
Hey gang,

I put a S/T bridge on my CV Jazzmaster, and it wants to pitch back, making the strings come in contact with the front of the bridge. Any ideas for fixing it? I told S/T what I was putting it in, and was assured it was the right bridge for the CV.

Shim the neck more, for more downward pressure? Tape? Surgical tubing? Calling in Agatha Harkness?

Oh, and the AVRI trem on it got weird when I put the S/T arm assembly on it. The lock button is damn near locked, there's that weird catch with a click going on...
Some side pics of the bridge would help us judge if it's a downforce/string-saddle friction problem - too little or too much. Did it pitch back after trem use, or just work its way there by itself ? How much is the neck shimmed already ? String gauge ? Standard tuning ? Hopefully no lubrication applied to string-saddle slots.
Last edited by timtam on Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by Zorro » Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:30 pm

Friction is your friend! Here is a good thread about the Staytrem bridge:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=105600

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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by ChrisDesign » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:15 pm

Adjust the vibrato.

Why is no one saying this yet? If you’re pulling sharp, reduce the vibrato tension. If you’re falling flat, increase it’s tension.

That’s vibrato spring is the force pulling after all. I love Leo’s original design with the lock because it gives you a great centre point to balance to.
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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by JSett » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:10 am

ChrisDesign wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:15 pm
Adjust the vibrato.

Why is no one saying this yet? If you’re pulling sharp, reduce the vibrato tension. If you’re falling flat, increase it’s tension.

That’s vibrato spring is the force pulling after all. I love Leo’s original design with the lock because it gives you a great centre point to balance to.
This is a valid point actually, and I'm surprised I forgot it too. A lot of people use the adjustment simply for arm angle but it will indeed make a difference to stability if there's issues elsewhere in the system. Good call.
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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by Maggieo » Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:00 am

I think the neck needs to be shimmed more. The break angle over the bridge is as shallow as a kiddie pool.
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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by DeathJag » Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:38 am

Nothing is working for me, so I just re-tune all the time. In a ten song set, I need to re-tune about two or three times. The low E always goes sharp, and for some reason that B always goes sharp. And then the A tends to take a slight dip: the whole thing needs to be re-tuned. The Mastery stayed in tune until I retuned, no matter what I did with the trem and no matter how much time passed. Truly remarkable! The Staytrem needs constant tuning. Yes I use the arm wildly, so this bridge is probably not the best choice for me. But I love how it sounds and feels so I am just re-tuning.

Is there anything I can do to stick the strings to the bridge more? Add some kind of goop or dirt or something?

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Re: Tips for staying in tune with a Staytrem trem?

Post by timtam » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:54 pm

DeathJag wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:38 am
Nothing is working for me, so I just re-tune all the time. In a ten song set, I need to re-tune about two or three times. The low E always goes sharp, and for some reason that B always goes sharp. And then the A tends to take a slight dip: the whole thing needs to be re-tuned. The Mastery stayed in tune until I retuned, no matter what I did with the trem and no matter how much time passed. Truly remarkable! The Staytrem needs constant tuning. Yes I use the arm wildly, so this bridge is probably not the best choice for me. But I love how it sounds and feels so I am just re-tuning.

Is there anything I can do to stick the strings to the bridge more? Add some kind of goop or dirt or something?
This thread has jumped around a bit, but re-reading and summarizing what I think we know ... it's 2005 AVRI jag with .013 - .056 strings, originally set up by a tech for a Mastery bridge but now with a rocking bridge. And you dive-bomb and pull-up on the trem a lot. Which causes tuning instability, seemingly due to the bridge not returning to the centred neutral position.

When you said "Staytem trem" in your title, do you mean it's the AVRI trem with just the collet and arm from Staytrem ? Or do you mean it's just the AVRI trem with a Staytrem bridge ?

Goop to increase string-saddle friction shouldn't be necessary. And short of rusty old strings and a rusty old vintage bridge I don't know of anything like that which would actually work to increase string-saddle friction. Higher string gauge (which you have with your 13-56's) and high string break angle (shimmed neck->higher bridge->higher break angle) are usually sufficient (one or both) to achieve the necessary high string-saddle friction for consistent bridge rocking/return to neutral.

Is the trem spring screw set to the "easy-in/easy-out" neutral position of the lock button ? That's the best starting point, that may or may not need further adjustment.
https://offset.guitars/the-goodies/sett ... lo-system/

There's a few things I think we still don't know. Like bridge height - and therefore string break angle. So side pics would help us judge that. Is the neck pocket shimmed at all (AVRI-62 does not have factory-angled neck pocket) ? And you're in standard tuning ?

It is possible that the (fixed) Mastery bridge was just better for the extent of your trem use. But I'm not sure that's the logical conclusion yet.
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