The Ultimate Shootout! (I've gone a bit nuts)

For help with setups and other technical issues.
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seenoevil II
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The Ultimate Shootout! (I've gone a bit nuts)

Post by seenoevil II » Sat Jul 27, 2024 9:40 am

Behold!!
Image

Same riffs, same tempo, same input level. Every 6-string electric guitar I own. Every pickup position. All into one amp sim on the mix bus. It's data, folks! Data!

The Dataset:

ES-335 T-top reissues:
Neck, Middle, Bridge
Firebird Q-pick ups:
Neck, Middle, Bridge
X-175 Seymour Duncan Staple P-90s:
Neck, Middle, Bridge
Gretsch DeArmond 2ks:
Neck, Middle, Bridge
Sheraton 2000's HBs:
Neck, Middle, Bridge
Telecaster Squier Standard:
Neck (slug mag), Middle, Bridge (dual blade HB)
Jazzmaster "Duncan Designed":
Neck, Middle, Bridge
Stratocaster Squier 1990's bar-mag:
Neck, Position 4, Middle, Position 2, Bridge


I just did this yesterday, and I'm only listening to the results now, so I'll reserve any opinions about any particular guitar, but I will mention why I did this, and what has been surprising to me so far in the results.

Instantaneous comparison When trying to evaluate different components of a guitar's tone, even the 5 second lapse while you switch guitars is enough to muddy your perceptions. Being able to switch signals instantly in a loop of the same riff reveals the "truth" about individual components of tone.

Not distracted by the act of playing Being able to simply listen and not have half your brain devoted to the act of playing allows you to focus on what you're hearing.

Quantitative analysis Ultimately, tone exists in the ears (or brain most accurately), but being able to see the db levels, the amount of amplitude variability, and the EQ curve is a powerful tool.

What have I noticed with all of this objectivity? It's early days, and I want to dig into this data a lot before hopefully pulling some useful insights from it, but I have noticed a few things.

Relative relationships between pick ups color subjective perceptions and hide absolute qualities.

My telecaster has a dual blade, bar magnet hum bucker in the neck position. Compared to the bridge pickup of the telecaster, it's pretty "dark." however, compared to the other neck pick ups, it actually stands out amongst the brightest and most articulate.

The ES-335 has huge output levels, but a surprisingly broad and useful EQ curve. Swapping between the 335 and other guitars in person, I waste a lot of time adjusting my ears and my amp to its higher output level. But when the jump can be made instantly, and the gain can be normalized, you realize that it has a frequency response that's a lot more delicate and "scooped" than you might expect. Certainly when compared to the Sheraton with its epiphone "dum"buckers.

"We might be looking for the same thing..."
Instantly jumping between guitars reveals some as icepicky and quiet and others as muddy and oversaturated. In both cases however, the amp and other elements are adjusted to bring them closer to each other. The amount of saturated and EQ that's desired is about the same in most cases. What would be interesting is seeing which guitars embody those qualities best without any adjustments.

Which means

Most signals can be made useable. For a "solid" middle of the road tone, even the muddiest and most trebly sounds can be squished and beaten to fit the mould. The real issue then becomes those situations when you want "more" of some quality. The naked pickup tone started out so far skewed in one direction, that it doesn't have any adjustability left to reach those outlier tones.
If it wasn't for disappointment, I wouldn't have any appointments.

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Nevets
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Re: The Ultimate Shootout! (I've gone a bit nuts)

Post by Nevets » Sun Jul 28, 2024 4:02 pm

That's an impressive dedication to data collection!

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timtam
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Re: The Ultimate Shootout! (I've gone a bit nuts)

Post by timtam » Sun Jul 28, 2024 10:34 pm

Nice work. The next step could be to set them up for blinded back-to-back listening test pairings. Get your assistant ( ;) ) to present them to you as random pairings (eg using something like the random pair generator below) and also record your impressions. Limit it to the same pickup positions across guitars so as not to get unnecessarily messy.
https://commentpicker.com/combination-generator.php
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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Steadyriot.
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Re: The Ultimate Shootout! (I've gone a bit nuts)

Post by Steadyriot. » Mon Jul 29, 2024 6:07 am

Oh that’s a cool project! Really curious what you think after a while of listening.

I’ve come to the same conclusion many times now that most if not all guitars can be finagled into something good or close enough. We’ve done retakes of parts where something just felt off (could be timing, note picked slightly wonky or whatever) without that specific guitar at hand and nobody would ever notice in a mix.

That being said, I should try this sometime. :ph34r:
"If someone duetted with a Bald Eagle, they could rule the Country charts from here to eternity." ~shadowplay

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seenoevil II
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Re: The Ultimate Shootout! (I've gone a bit nuts)

Post by seenoevil II » Mon Jul 29, 2024 1:09 pm

Nevets wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2024 4:02 pm
That's an impressive dedication to data collection!
Thanks! It was surprisingly exhausting.

timtam wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2024 10:34 pm
Nice work. The next step could be to set them up for blinded back-to-back listening test pairings. Get your assistant ( ;) ) to present them to you as random pairings (eg using something like the random pair generator below) and also record your impressions. Limit it to the same pickup positions across guitars so as not to get unnecessarily messy.
https://commentpicker.com/combination-generator.php

I thought about this. Like a sommelier, I could tell you the color finish on your duo jet by hearing a single bar.

Joking aside, I think about turning this into a tool that other people can use. It would be a great excuse to learn how to code. I think I'd put together a different sample set though as, A. I don't think this is a selection of pickups most people are interested in, and B. my go-to tone test tunes aren't what most people would want to hear anyway. 3 of them are Stephen Malkmus riffs. I'n not a super fan...well, I am, but I just find his parts really useful for sussing out tone.
Steadyriot. wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2024 6:07 am
Oh that’s a cool project! Really curious what you think after a while of listening.

I’ve come to the same conclusion many times now that most if not all guitars can be finagled into something good or close enough. We’ve done retakes of parts where something just felt off (could be timing, note picked slightly wonky or whatever) without that specific guitar at hand and nobody would ever notice in a mix.

That being said, I should try this sometime. :ph34r:
I totally agree! That's one huge caveat here, that this information is really only pertinent to recordings and mixing. Playing live has a different set of considerations. And ironically, I think that you're right, recordings are the realm where these tone differences matter the least. For instance, the "worst" sounding guitar on there is the primary instrument on the my favorite EP I ever released!

If I isolate a part and really pay attention, I can remember what guitar it was. It's almost like recognizing an actor in a costume piece. Like Wow, Dustin Hoffman really did play Captain Hook. you could hardly tell that was him.
If it wasn't for disappointment, I wouldn't have any appointments.

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Re: The Ultimate Shootout! (I've gone a bit nuts)

Post by Flurko » Mon Jul 29, 2024 2:52 pm

That's a great project and something I've often wondered myself. I have too much guitars (as well?) but they often live in different tunings or in need of repair so I've never tried something like this. The sample set would be funny with more extreme pickups on both sides, line lipsticks or goldfoils vs quad bar humbuckers/high output emgs, etc.

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