Fender Mute/bridge setup 1965 Jaguar

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Ground Control
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Fender Mute/bridge setup 1965 Jaguar

Post by Ground Control » Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:13 am

Anyone point me to a good link were it goes into good detail and setting up the bridge/Fender Mute/and tremolo on a 1965 Fender Jaguar.
Cheers :w00t:
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timtam
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Re: Fender Mute/bridge setup 1965 Jaguar

Post by timtam » Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:21 pm

These are good on trem and mute ..
https://offset.guitars/the-goodies/sett ... lo-system/
https://mmguitarbar.wordpress.com/2017/ ... nder-mute/
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19324

As far as vintage-style bridge setup is concerned, the amount of tweaking required depends on things like how much you use the trem and how hard you play. Essentially you're aiming for sufficient string-saddle friction to rock the bridge all the way forward and back to exactly where it started with trem use (strings sliding over the saddles works against this), and also to keep the strings in their saddle grooves. Leo's original patent makes a distinction between the need for friction in some places* and the absence of friction in others. The required high friction at the string-saddle interface is aided by higher string tension (higher gauges, eg 11+ on the 24" scale jag), higher string break angle over the bridge (good neck angle=>higher bridge, ie tapered neck shim if necessary), and a high-friction interface in the grooves (ie no saddle groove lubrication). Conversely you want very low friction at the nut (and of course good string winding technique on the tuners). If anything in the bridge rattles, blue loctite is the common fix (fortunately vintage bridges are often somewhat gummed up with age; leave them that way). Many people make the vintage bridge work, but some consider other bridge options (Mustang, Staytrem, Mastery) and store the vintage one for when the sell. YMMV.

*From Leo's original patent ...
The friction of the strings 13 upon the barrels 63 then causes the barrels 63 to move with the strings instead of sliding relative thereto so that the barrels and support channel 61 rock with the assemblies 62 about the pivot or fulcrum points at the lower ends of screws 66.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US2972923A/en
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

Ground Control
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Re: Fender Mute/bridge setup 1965 Jaguar

Post by Ground Control » Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:54 pm

Absolutely perfect thank you so much.
Yes I was told that the Jaguar was a different breed to setup. One thing I was told was to do before doing anything was to shim the bridge legs to take some of the wobble. I found some slime tefflon sleeve that may work.
Thanks again for you information. :)
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timtam
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Re: Fender Mute/bridge setup 1965 Jaguar

Post by timtam » Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:18 pm

Ground Control wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:54 pm
Absolutely perfect thank you so much.
Yes I was told that the Jaguar was a different breed to setup. One thing I was told was to do before doing anything was to shim the bridge legs to take some of the wobble. I found some slime tefflon sleeve that may work.
Thanks again for you information. :)
By 'shim the bridge legs to take some of the wobble' (with teflon sleeves) I assume you mean putting those around the bridge posts ? (shimming usually refers to the neck pocket).

Anything that stops the bridge from rocking freely is potentially problematic, although not always so. It's a 'solution' from the time when people threw up their hands when presented with jags/jazzmasters not staying in tune, without understanding the important characteristics of the original design and the elements necessary to make it work (similar to blocking a strat trem because you can't make it work). Fender has actually used that approach recently in the American Professional (the model that ditched a lot of the original jag/JM features), by adding nylon anti-rocking bushings in the thimbles*. Similar to people who have attempted to wrap the bridge posts with tape to block them from rocking in the thimbles (or replaced the bridge with a TOM or Mastery, which don't rock at all). To the extent that impeding full post rocking encourages the bridge to 'bounce' back to where it started after trem use, they can work. OTOH restricting bridge rocking creates the possibility that the strings may slide over the saddles for part of the motion associated with trem use, and 'grip' / move the bridge for the other part, creating the potential for incomplete forward/backward movement, and the strings to return to a length/tension that is not where they started (hence tuning issues). Not the way Leo designed it, with free, full bridge rocking**.

The general recommendation is to try to get the vintage bridge working without impediment to begin with, as it was designed, and then approach any problems as systematically as possible, using the now well-understood solutions. Many would now class restricting bridge rocking as a 'last ditch' solution.

*Incidentally, Fender's generic/offset-specific setup instructions (they have other instructions that are strat-specific and tele-specific) includes the erroneous direction to lubricate the string-saddle interface, ie opposite to Leo's design principles for the offset bridge. Read into that what you will of Fender's current understanding of Leo's design.
https://support.fender.com/hc/en-us/art ... -properly-

**Leo essentially criticized his own earlier design for the strat trem/bridge in the introduction of the offset trem patent, particularly the presence of friction where you don't want it (contrasted to the string-saddle interface where you do, as in the earlier quote), where it can impede free motion of the trem/bridge ...
"In tremolo devices of the floating or balanced variety, in which the string tension is counter-balanced by a spring bias, the amount of friction present is frequently such that the neutral position is not achieved with sufficient accuracy and reliability to insure maintenance of proper intonation.
...
In view of the above and other factors characteristic of conventional tremolo and bridge devices, it is an object of the present invention to provide a musical instrument characterized by the absence of friction, extreme simplicity of string replacement and fine tuning, complete adjustability of the individual bridge elements relative to the strings, and the absence of any sliding or rubbing between the strings and the bridge elements during tremolo movements or at any other time.
...
The above rocking actions occur without engagement or interference between any of the described elements. The only points of friction are at the bottoms of screws 66 and at the knife-edge elements 28. The friction produced at these points is so extremely small that, upon release of the control arm 51, the string plate 24 returns to the exact neutral position producing the perfect pitch to which the instrument was tuned. In fact, the construction may be assumed to be frictionless."

https://patents.google.com/patent/US2972923A/en
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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Re: Fender Mute/bridge setup 1965 Jaguar

Post by Ground Control » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:32 pm

Good reading clever guy Fender.
I noticed something that I over looked before and that is item # 66 in Fender illustration, the threaded inner adjuster legs, mine are missing?
:unsure:
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timtam
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Re: Fender Mute/bridge setup 1965 Jaguar

Post by timtam » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:29 pm

Ground Control wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:32 pm
Good reading clever guy Fender.
I noticed something that I over looked before and that is item # 66 in Fender illustration, the threaded inner adjuster legs, mine are missing?
:unsure:
You mean the bridge height adjustment grub screws ? On MIA guitars they are #4-40, 3/8" (although slightly longer works too), conical tip. Adjusted via 0.05" allen key.
https://www.guitarpartsfactory.us/index ... ct_id=2256
Image
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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whitewatersky
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Re: Fender Mute/bridge setup 1965 Jaguar

Post by whitewatersky » Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:41 pm

here's a link to the "Mute or damper device for a guitar" Patent 3,260,148 (pickup link also below)

https://patents.google.com/patent/US3260148A/en

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis ... 260148.pdf

Dates are interesting

Application US412875A events
1964-11-12 Application filed by Columbia Records Distribution Corp
1964-11-12 Priority to US412875A
1966-07-12 Application granted
1966-07-12 Publication of US3260148A
1983-07-12 Anticipated expiration
Status
Expired - Lifetime

interesting crossover dates - applied prior to the takeover, but granted after... name of the applicant changed to reflect the NEW owner of the patent, since the application was still pending at time of corporate changeover

This has some cool reading links:
https://patents.google.com/?assignee=Co ... ution+Corp

Including this one for the Jaguar pickups:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US323 ... ution+Corp

Scroll right to the bottom of above page for a list of many pickup Patents by Gibson, Valco, Rowe - also Leo's 1948 & 1961 pickup Patents
Last edited by whitewatersky on Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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FrankRay
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Re: Fender Mute/bridge setup 1965 Jaguar

Post by FrankRay » Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:15 pm

Strictly, the little button on the trem unit when pressed toward the tail stops the tremolo moving down. This keeps the guitar in tune if you break a string. It's a real pain, but the trem should be set up so that it stays in tune when the button is pressed downward, which is usually means you have to tighten the spring until the two settings meet, if you get me.
The spring can be screwed tighter or looser using the screw in the middle of the plate, and that adjusts where the trem stays when not being used and that affects whether or not the button works when used. AFAIK the only way to get it right is trial and error.

You don't have to bother, but if you break a string playing live the whole guitar will shoot massively out of tune if you don't. It has happened to me a few times because I like the spring to be set up quite loose and responsive. It makes trying to guess where the top E might be now quite fun.

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