Tuning issues with Am pro ii JM?

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Tuning issues with Am pro ii JM?

Post by AnonymousPerson » Fri May 28, 2021 8:06 pm

Anyone experiencing tuning issues when using the panorama trem? Brand new guitar is struggling to stay in tune whenever I use the trem arm. What are the experiences with other JMs? Do they generally stay in tune when using the trem arm? Any info would be appreciated.

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Re: Tuning issues with Am pro ii JM?

Post by soul1 » Fri May 28, 2021 8:49 pm

The majority of tuning issues are due to a poorly cut nut.

Also, what string gauge are you using? Sometimes heavier strings stay in tune better with trem use. But again, if the nut is the issue, then it doesn't matter what strings you use, it won't stay in tune.

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Re: Tuning issues with Am pro ii JM?

Post by timtam » Fri May 28, 2021 9:59 pm

After the nut, stable tuning with trem use is usually dependent on consistent rocking of the bridge. If the bridge does not return to exactly where it started, then tuned string tension will be disturbed. The rocking bridge relies on sufficient string downforce for the high string-saddle friction that allows the strings to 'grip' the bridge and move it consistently.

The Am Pro II has the same Mustang-style bridge as the Am Pro (I), with nylon anti-rocking bushings in the thimbles. The merits or otherwise of the bushings are questionable - on the one hand they encourage the bridge to remain centered; on the other hand they restrict the bridge from rocking freely. To some extent that confuses the mechanics - Fender's curious choice there possibly mimics the misguided wrapping of the bridge posts with tape that some people used in earlier decades before the bridge and trem mechanics were well-understood. Restricting bridge movement makes it more like a fixed bridge (eg Mastery), which has a completely different set of mechanics (low string-saddle friction, because the strings have to slide over the saddles). Some people remove the nylon bushings from the thimbles. Also, on a rocking bridge, one should never lubricate the saddle grooves (as it stops the strings from gripping/moving the bridge consistently).

Sufficient downforce on the saddles is a result of string tension and string break angle over the bridge. The former is aided by higher gauge strings and the latter by sufficient bridge height (achieved by an angled neck pocket or tapered neck pocket shim). One strategy may be sufficient for stable tuning with trem use, or you may need a combination to get to the right downforce.

Having said all that, none of us have much experience with the new Panorama trem. The way it interacts with the strings and the bridge is the same as the traditional trem, so the principles are the same. However it can move the strings further than the traditional trem. It's likely that the more the strings change length with trem use, the more likely are tuning issues and the more stringent the strategies required.
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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Re: Tuning issues with Am pro ii JM?

Post by AnonymousPerson » Sat May 29, 2021 7:33 am

soul1 wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 8:49 pm
The majority of tuning issues are due to a poorly cut nut.

Also, what string gauge are you using? Sometimes heavier strings stay in tune better with trem use. But again, if the nut is the issue, then it doesn't matter what strings you use, it won't stay in tune.
String gauge is .009 out of the box. It seems as though even without trem use it slips out of tune. This is the second am pro ii I’ve tried with this issue. Wondering if the strings need to be worked in or something. Everything else is great but I would think a pricey guitar like this should be ready to play without needing adjustments lol.

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Re: Tuning issues with Am pro ii JM?

Post by AnonymousPerson » Sat May 29, 2021 7:45 am

timtam wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 9:59 pm
After the nut, stable tuning with trem use is usually dependent on consistent rocking of the bridge. If the bridge does not return to exactly where it started, then tuned string tension will be disturbed. The rocking bridge relies on sufficient string downforce for the high string-saddle friction that allows the strings to 'grip' the bridge and move it consistently.

The Am Pro II has the same Mustang-style bridge as the Am Pro (I), with nylon anti-rocking bushings in the thimbles. The merits or otherwise of the bushings are questionable - on the one hand they encourage the bridge to remain centered; on the other hand they restrict the bridge from rocking freely. To some extent that confuses the mechanics - Fender's curious choice there possibly mimics the misguided wrapping of the bridge posts with tape that some people used in earlier decades before the bridge and trem mechanics were well-understood. Restricting bridge movement makes it more like a fixed bridge (eg Mastery), which has a completely different set of mechanics (low string-saddle friction, because the strings have to slide over the saddles). Some people remove the nylon bushings from the thimbles. Also, on a rocking bridge, one should never lubricate the saddle grooves (as it stops the strings from gripping/moving the bridge consistently).

Sufficient downforce on the saddles is a result of string tension and string break angle over the bridge. The former is aided by higher gauge strings and the latter by sufficient bridge height (achieved by an angled neck pocket or tapered neck pocket shim). One strategy may be sufficient for stable tuning with trem use, or you may need a combination to get to the right downforce.

Having said all that, none of us have much experience with the new Panorama trem. The way it interacts with the strings and the bridge is the same as the traditional trem, so the principles are the same. However it can move the strings further than the traditional trem. It's likely that the more the strings change length with trem use, the more likely are tuning issues and the more stringent the strategies required.
Thank you for the fulsome reply. What you’re saying makes sense.

I’m not sure how to move forward with this guitar. The last thing I want to do is replace any parts on the guitar. Could it be simply that the strings need working in or the fact that I live in a climate that has stark temp changes throughout the day?

Would you know how to best utilize the trem-lock on this? If the lock feature is engaged, could it lessen the tuning instability?

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Re: Tuning issues with Am pro ii JM?

Post by timtam » Sat May 29, 2021 8:28 am

AnonymousPerson wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 7:45 am
Thank you for the fulsome reply. What you’re saying makes sense.

I’m not sure how to move forward with this guitar. The last thing I want to do is replace any parts on the guitar. Could it be simply that the strings need working in or the fact that I live in a climate that has stark temp changes throughout the day?

Would you know how to best utilize the trem-lock on this? If the lock feature is engaged, could it lessen the tuning instability?
If the strings are new then yes, they may take the usual time to stabilize, helped by checking your tuner winding technique and stretching any slack out of the tuner windings etc.

The trem lock only blocks pull-ups. Its utility (for restoring tuning after a broken string) is somewhat limited - a lot of people don't bother with it. Locking pull-ups is not usually a measure to deal with tuning issues. But it is good to adjust the spring screw to get the lock to the 'easy-in/easy-out' position, for roughly 'neutral' spring compression (and thus reasonably balanced restoring force on the trem, as a starting point):
https://offset.guitars/the-goodies/sett ... lo-system/

There is a school of thought that 9's are a tad low in tension for a good JM setup, as they reduce downforce on the bridge. I would try 10s. And some nut sauce-style lubricant (or pencil lead) in the nut slots (no lubricant on the saddles). Are you getting any pinging when tuning, due to nut slot binding ? If you push a string down behind the nut, does it stay sharp when released ?

I suspect the neck pocket is cut angled (~1 deg), so unless the bridge is low (side pics would help determine that), the pocket probably doesn't need additional shimming.

While climate might have an effect over time, within a session once it's tuned I wouldn't expect short-term changes.

Are you dive bombing the Panorama trem, or just using it more gently ? A traditional trem is quite stable when set up right. As I said the mods in the Panorama are still a bit of an unknown quantity. I haven't played one. You should see the bridge move a short distance forward and back with trem use, returning to where it started. Hopefully if anything the nylon bushings are aiding rather than hindering that.
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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Re: Tuning issues with Am pro ii JM?

Post by AnonymousPerson » Sat May 29, 2021 9:53 am

timtam wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 8:28 am
AnonymousPerson wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 7:45 am
Thank you for the fulsome reply. What you’re saying makes sense.

I’m not sure how to move forward with this guitar. The last thing I want to do is replace any parts on the guitar. Could it be simply that the strings need working in or the fact that I live in a climate that has stark temp changes throughout the day?

Would you know how to best utilize the trem-lock on this? If the lock feature is engaged, could it lessen the tuning instability?
If the strings are new then yes, they may take the usual time to stabilize, helped by checking your tuner winding technique and stretching any slack out of the tuner windings etc.

The trem lock only blocks pull-ups. Its utility (for restoring tuning after a broken string) is somewhat limited - a lot of people don't bother with it. Locking pull-ups is not usually a measure to deal with tuning issues. But it is good to adjust the spring screw to get the lock to the 'easy-in/easy-out' position, for roughly 'neutral' spring compression (and thus reasonably balanced restoring force on the trem, as a starting point):
https://offset.guitars/the-goodies/sett ... lo-system/

There is a school of thought that 9's are a tad low in tension for a good JM setup, as they reduce downforce on the bridge. I would try 10s. And some nut sauce-style lubricant (or pencil lead) in the nut slots (no lubricant on the saddles). Are you getting any pinging when tuning, due to nut slot binding ? If you push a string down behind the nut, does it stay sharp when released ?

I suspect the neck pocket is cut angled (~1 deg), so unless the bridge is low (side pics would help determine that), the pocket probably doesn't need additional shimming.

While climate might have an effect over time, within a session once it's tuned I wouldn't expect short-term changes.

Are you dive bombing the Panorama trem, or just using it more gently ? A traditional trem is quite stable when set up right. As I said the mods in the Panorama are still a bit of an unknown quantity. I haven't played one. You should see the bridge move a short distance forward and back with trem use, returning to where it started. Hopefully if anything the nylon bushings are aiding rather than hindering that.
I’ll give these a try. This guitar is straight out of the box. I have never purchased new before and have had a reliable used Mexican strat for over a decade. I’m a litttle surprised at how little this guitar is staying in tune. Like it will be out of tune after it sits in the case for a couple of hours. The same exact thing happened with the first am pro ii JM I picked up. Hard to justify spending money on this guitar. Might just return it for a cheap squier I can mod to death.

I’ve watched almost all the videos of people reviewing the am pro ii and no one has mentioned anything about tuning issues.

It goes out of tune when I strum without the trem arm in, goes out of tune with light use and dive bombing. Been patiently tuning and hoping it eventually stabilizes.

I’ll try to get a pic up. Such a shame cause it seems like a versatile guitar and feels great to play when in tune.

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Re: Tuning issues with Am pro ii JM?

Post by soul1 » Sat May 29, 2021 12:30 pm

AnonymousPerson wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 9:53 am
timtam wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 8:28 am
AnonymousPerson wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 7:45 am
Thank you for the fulsome reply. What you’re saying makes sense.

I’m not sure how to move forward with this guitar. The last thing I want to do is replace any parts on the guitar. Could it be simply that the strings need working in or the fact that I live in a climate that has stark temp changes throughout the day?

Would you know how to best utilize the trem-lock on this? If the lock feature is engaged, could it lessen the tuning instability?
If the strings are new then yes, they may take the usual time to stabilize, helped by checking your tuner winding technique and stretching any slack out of the tuner windings etc.

The trem lock only blocks pull-ups. Its utility (for restoring tuning after a broken string) is somewhat limited - a lot of people don't bother with it. Locking pull-ups is not usually a measure to deal with tuning issues. But it is good to adjust the spring screw to get the lock to the 'easy-in/easy-out' position, for roughly 'neutral' spring compression (and thus reasonably balanced restoring force on the trem, as a starting point):
https://offset.guitars/the-goodies/sett ... lo-system/

There is a school of thought that 9's are a tad low in tension for a good JM setup, as they reduce downforce on the bridge. I would try 10s. And some nut sauce-style lubricant (or pencil lead) in the nut slots (no lubricant on the saddles). Are you getting any pinging when tuning, due to nut slot binding ? If you push a string down behind the nut, does it stay sharp when released ?

I suspect the neck pocket is cut angled (~1 deg), so unless the bridge is low (side pics would help determine that), the pocket probably doesn't need additional shimming.

While climate might have an effect over time, within a session once it's tuned I wouldn't expect short-term changes.

Are you dive bombing the Panorama trem, or just using it more gently ? A traditional trem is quite stable when set up right. As I said the mods in the Panorama are still a bit of an unknown quantity. I haven't played one. You should see the bridge move a short distance forward and back with trem use, returning to where it started. Hopefully if anything the nylon bushings are aiding rather than hindering that.
I’ll give these a try. This guitar is straight out of the box. I have never purchased new before and have had a reliable used Mexican strat for over a decade. I’m a litttle surprised at how little this guitar is staying in tune. Like it will be out of tune after it sits in the case for a couple of hours. The same exact thing happened with the first am pro ii JM I picked up. Hard to justify spending money on this guitar. Might just return it for a cheap squier I can mod to death.

I’ve watched almost all the videos of people reviewing the am pro ii and no one has mentioned anything about tuning issues.

It goes out of tune when I strum without the trem arm in, goes out of tune with light use and dive bombing. Been patiently tuning and hoping it eventually stabilizes.

I’ll try to get a pic up. Such a shame cause it seems like a versatile guitar and feels great to play when in tune.
Sadly, it's not uncommon for Fender to ship new guitars with nut issues. I would suggest going up to a heavier gauge, lubricating the nut (Big Bends nut sauce is good for this), and filling/fixing the nut slots to accommodate the heavier strings. If you're not comfortable doing that, take it to a good tech and they will take care of it.

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Re: Tuning issues with Am pro ii JM?

Post by Norrin Radd » Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:29 pm

1. We need pics to assist in diagnosis
2. Put some strings on there that help the guitar actually work. 10s are a minimum starting point.
3. The strings Fender puts on guitars from the factory are the cheapest ones you can find. Try a new set.
4. We need photos. Lots of them if you want good quality analysis.
5. When guitars go to reviewers, those things are gone over with a fIne toothed comb before they leave the factory - exactly unlike the ones you and I buy out of the box. It’s not surprising your issue was never mentioned in a review.
6. Some photos would really help.

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Re: Tuning issues with Am pro ii JM?

Post by jorri » Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:28 am

AnonymousPerson wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 7:33 am
Everything else is great but I would think a pricey guitar like this should be ready to play without needing adjustments lol.
I'd assume the opposite, that every new guitar is not set up, at least for one's personal spec. Even when the shop tried, they may be clueless on offsets.

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Re: Tuning issues with Am pro ii JM?

Post by tdbajus » Thu Jul 13, 2023 11:56 am

I just installed a Panorama, and it goes a quarter step flat when I bend down, and a quarter step sharp when I pull up.

I'm using 10-52 strings, and a Mastery bridge. Didn't have a problem with the old trem, really. Might just switch it back.

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Re: Tuning issues with Am pro ii JM?

Post by VANRNR » Thu Jul 13, 2023 5:31 pm

I've had my Am Pro II for a year and had no tuning issues. I use 11's, and agree that 10's are the minimum to use. I agree with others that your nut seems to be the likely cause, as its not uncommon for the factory to leave it high and rough. Also, if the factory wrapped too much string on the tuner, which I've seen, that can cause slippage. You don't need much. Search youtube for pro tips for stringing.

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Re: Tuning issues with Am pro ii JM?

Post by fisonic » Fri Jul 14, 2023 3:10 am

tdbajus wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2023 11:56 am
I just installed a Panorama, and it goes a quarter step flat when I bend down, and a quarter step sharp when I pull up.

I'm using 10-52 strings, and a Mastery bridge. Didn't have a problem with the old trem, really. Might just switch it back.
Another thing worth checking is that the spring isn’t binding in the spring seat. I’ve had that before & a bit of teflon grease between the spring & the seat, as well as on the knife edge on the fulcrum plate did the trick.

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