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Viable Setup For 9's in a Jaguar?
Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:48 pm
by Wucan
I love the strat sound, but I hate playing on standard scales. I've found that the lighter string gauge (as opposed to 10's/11's you'd usually play with a 24" scale) plays a big part in it, so I've been trying out 9's on my Jaguarillo which is configured like an HSS strat. I find that it gets close enough to the sound, but I swear by the end of every play session it's already out of tune, which wasn't the case with heavier string gauges. It's a significant bother.
I'd imagine the lower tension from the shorter scale plays a big part in it, but that it could be potentially mitigated by upgrades in the nut/tuners/bridge. Would it be worth looking at stuff like locking tuners to try to make it work, or would it be a futile fight against physics?
Re: Viable Setup For 9's in a Jaguar?
Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:14 am
by GreenKnee
Roundwounds take some time to stretch out and become stable, and so with the shortscale they're not under as much tension as they usually would be. Perhaps give them a good tug and stretch and see if they settle in. Lubricate all points of contact too, will help
Re: Viable Setup For 9's in a Jaguar?
Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:40 am
by JSett
Wucan wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:48 pm
I love the strat sound, but I hate playing on standard scales. I've found that the lighter string gauge (as opposed to 10's/11's you'd usually play with a 24" scale) plays a big part in it, so I've been trying out 9's on my Jaguarillo which is configured like an HSS strat. I find that it gets close enough to the sound, but I swear by the end of every play session it's already out of tune, which wasn't the case with heavier string gauges. It's a significant bother.
I'd imagine the lower tension from the shorter scale plays a big part in it, but that it could be potentially mitigated by upgrades in the nut/tuners/bridge. Would it be worth looking at stuff like locking tuners to try to make it work, or would it be a futile fight against physics?
Locking tuners will make no difference at all, a locking nut maybe but tuners not at all. Locking tuners
do not keep a guitar in tune...that's the great myth about them. Theoretically if the guitar is set up well enough then 9's should stay in tune well enough but will feel floppy and light on a short scale. I wouldn't personally entertain anything less than 11's on a 24" scale but that's also down to personal preference. 12-54 for me is perfect and stays in tune great.
That Strat sound has way more to do with the 25.5" scale combined with the exact position and type of the pickups and the bridge type than the string gauge... the fact that a strat sounds like a strat whether it has 9's or 13's on puts that theory to rest well and true.
Re: Viable Setup For 9's in a Jaguar?
Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:59 am
by jthomas
I have 9s on a Squire Jag. Mine stays in tune ok, but I don't use the vibrato much, at all. I've got a mustang modified bridge on it and nut sauce in all the right places.
Re: Viable Setup For 9's in a Jaguar?
Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:36 pm
by ChrisDesign
If you have a bone nut, you must lubricate it. Try Lizard Spit if Nut Sauce. Never lubricate the saddle.
If you have a plastic nut, replace it with a graphtec black nut. They’re self lubricating.
If you’re pulling sharp after using the vibrato, reduce spring tension. If you’re pulling flat, increase spring tension.
Re: Viable Setup For 9's in a Jaguar?
Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:26 am
by timtam
Since it's a Jaguarillo, it has a fixed AOM/tune-o-matic-style bridge, right ? In that case reducing string-saddle friction will help - so a roller TOM bridge. You need to know the existing lower post diameter if you replace posts and bridge, screwing into the existing bushings. Or just the top post diameter for your new bridge to sit on the existing post tops. Either way you need to match post-to-post spacing.
Re: Viable Setup For 9's in a Jaguar?
Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:38 pm
by Wucan
Thanks for the suggestions, guys. It's a plastic nut with an AOM so I'll look at nut options first then see what happens.
johnnysomersett wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:40 am
Wucan wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:48 pm
I love the strat sound, but I hate playing on standard scales. I've found that the lighter string gauge (as opposed to 10's/11's you'd usually play with a 24" scale) plays a big part in it, so I've been trying out 9's on my Jaguarillo which is configured like an HSS strat. I find that it gets close enough to the sound, but I swear by the end of every play session it's already out of tune, which wasn't the case with heavier string gauges. It's a significant bother.
I'd imagine the lower tension from the shorter scale plays a big part in it, but that it could be potentially mitigated by upgrades in the nut/tuners/bridge. Would it be worth looking at stuff like locking tuners to try to make it work, or would it be a futile fight against physics?
Locking tuners will make no difference at all, a locking nut maybe but tuners not at all. Locking tuners
do not keep a guitar in tune...that's the great myth about them. Theoretically if the guitar is set up well enough then 9's should stay in tune well enough but will feel floppy and light on a short scale. I wouldn't personally entertain anything less than 11's on a 24" scale but that's also down to personal preference. 12-54 for me is perfect and stays in tune great.
That Strat sound has way more to do with the 25.5" scale combined with the exact position and type of the pickups and the bridge type than the string gauge... the fact that a strat sounds like a strat whether it has 9's or 13's on puts that theory to rest well and true.
well I'm not exactly tone-chasing, I was just mentioning the circumstances of my current setup, but beefier strings invariably darken the sound. yeah the physics of a 24" vs 25.5" are fundamentally different but so are the physics of different string gauges.
Re: Viable Setup For 9's in a Jaguar?
Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:08 am
by JSett
Wucan wrote: ↑Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:38 pm
Wucan wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:48 pm
I love the strat sound, but I hate playing on standard scales. I've found that the lighter string gauge (as opposed to 10's/11's you'd usually play with a 24" scale) plays a big part in it, so I've been trying out 9's on my Jaguarillo which is configured like an HSS strat.
I find that it gets close enough to the sound, but I swear by the end of every play session it's already out of tune, which wasn't the case with heavier string gauges. It's a significant bother.
well I'm not exactly tone-chasing, I was just mentioning the circumstances of my current setup, but beefier strings invariably darken the sound. yeah the physics of a 24" vs 25.5" are fundamentally different but so are the physics of different string gauges.
Sorry, I assumed that the statements in your original post (highlighted in bold for reference) were in relation to you trying to get your Jaguarillo to sound more like a Strat. It certainly reads that way.
Quite simply, putting 9s on a 24" scale is asking for headache - it's possible but you're going to be fighting it constantly. And is not going to make it sound any more like a Stratocaster (going back to my previous point of a Strat sounding like a Strat whether it has 8s or 13s on it). Beefier strings don't darken the sound by any real noticeable amount...not enough to change the overall character of a guitar at least. You'd have more luck putting an EQ in the chain and tweaking it to get whatever tone you are chasing.
The shorter scale physics far outweigh the string physics in this situation.
A short scale guitar has more fundamental frequency response and less harmonic overtones (compare a Jazz bass to a Mustang bass, for example). So it quite simply does not generate the higher end spectrum of sound as much as a longer scale. It's not something that will magically come back with different strings or even by turning up the treble...they're just
not there. I had the same issue recently trying to get extra 'twang' out of my Musicmaster bass and thinner strings made no difference at all to the sound...but made it play like shit. I sold it and bought a full-scale Jaguar bass - the sound I was after was there all along. Lesson learned.
Fwiw, I'm not trying to be contrary here, I just think you're clutching at something that can't exist and don't want to see you waste time and money getting to a point of disappointment. Changing the nut, bridge, tuners (locking tuners are a con anyway but that's a different subject entirely) etc are all moot points in what seems to be the end goal. You're chasing a ghost my friend.
Re: Viable Setup For 9's in a Jaguar?
Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:40 pm
by Wucan
johnnysomersett wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:08 am
Wucan wrote: ↑Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:38 pm
Wucan wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:48 pm
I love the strat sound, but I hate playing on standard scales. I've found that the lighter string gauge (as opposed to 10's/11's you'd usually play with a 24" scale) plays a big part in it, so I've been trying out 9's on my Jaguarillo which is configured like an HSS strat.
I find that it gets close enough to the sound, but I swear by the end of every play session it's already out of tune, which wasn't the case with heavier string gauges. It's a significant bother.
well I'm not exactly tone-chasing, I was just mentioning the circumstances of my current setup, but beefier strings invariably darken the sound. yeah the physics of a 24" vs 25.5" are fundamentally different but so are the physics of different string gauges.
Sorry, I assumed that the statements in your original post (highlighted in bold for reference) were in relation to you trying to get your Jaguarillo to sound more like a Strat. It certainly reads that way.
Quite simply, putting 9s on a 24" scale is asking for headache - it's possible but you're going to be fighting it constantly. And is not going to make it sound any more like a Stratocaster (going back to my previous point of a Strat sounding like a Strat whether it has 8s or 13s on it). Beefier strings don't darken the sound by any real noticeable amount...not enough to change the overall character of a guitar at least. You'd have more luck putting an EQ in the chain and tweaking it to get whatever tone you are chasing.
The shorter scale physics far outweigh the string physics in this situation.
A short scale guitar has more fundamental frequency response and less harmonic overtones (compare a Jazz bass to a Mustang bass, for example). So it quite simply does not generate the higher end spectrum of sound as much as a longer scale. It's not something that will magically come back with different strings or even by turning up the treble...they're just
not there. I had the same issue recently trying to get extra 'twang' out of my Musicmaster bass and thinner strings made no difference at all to the sound...but made it play like shit. I sold it and bought a full-scale Jaguar bass - the sound I was after was there all along. Lesson learned.
Fwiw, I'm not trying to be contrary here, I just think you're clutching at something that can't exist and don't want to see you waste time and money getting to a point of disappointment. Changing the nut, bridge, tuners (locking tuners are a con anyway but that's a different subject entirely) etc are all moot points in what seems to be the end goal. You're chasing a ghost my friend.
Thanks for delving a bit deeper. I'm into extended range guitars as well, and some guys swear up and down that bass-like scales is better for clarity than anything else... can't argue with their results but I guess I couldn't understand why matching tension along different scales wouldn't solve most of the problem.