Help with intonation, please

[gnuyork]

Recently I was recording with my Les Paul and leave it to a recording to really call out tuning issues. I know I tuned the guitar right before recording the track, but there was a 5th fret d minor barre chord that just sounded out of whack in the recording. I've never adjusted intonation before, never even checked, but I did have the guitar set up many years ago. Long story short, I checked my intonation and it was off. I made some adjustments and, though not perfect, it's much better.

This led me to check my Fender guitars. A 1960 reissue Strat, and my 59 reissue Jazzmaster. Though I didn't really hear any tuning issues per say, but in checking the intonation, they were both off in a couple strings each. This leads me to my problem and thus my post. I seem to have issues adjusting the intonation on both, but more notably the Jazzmaster with the D string.

It seems no matter how far I turn the screw (clockwise) the 12th fretted note is sharp. I'm to the point where it's very difficult to turn the screw, like I might strip it out, even though there seems to be some travel left. I think I read turn t he screw clockwise of the fretted note is sharp, right?

Is this a common issue with these bridges/saddles? Do I need to take this to a pro?

Thanks for any help!

[DrippyReverbTremolo]

A common way to deal with that on a TOM is to 'flip the saddle'. I.e. uninstall, flip, reinstall.

Are you using a tuner? Make sure to play open string & check same string by fretting it at the 12th fret. Don't use the octave.

If sharp, make string longer.
If flat, make string shorter.

A crazy high bridge can also cause having not enough travel to intonate properly.

[gnuyork]

Yes, I'm using a strobe tuner (Strobostomp).

So it's important to play the open note and not the 12th fret harmonic? That said, I've been tuning to the open string, but I have seen it done (on YT) with the 12th fret harmonic. Thanks for the tips.

[gnuyork]

I meant I've seen it done with 12th fret harmonic for the string tune, not the fretted 12th fret to check intonation. Eiter way, I'm tuning the open string and checking the fretted 12th (very lightly pressed to got go sharp).

[skelt101]

You might try detuning the D string and/or removing it from the saddle. That might make adjustments with the screw easier.

[timtam]

There is no difference between using the open string or the 12th-fret harmonic as your reference note - that you initially tune the string to. Those two notes are always exactly an octave apart (unless you have a bad string, in which case it is unlikely that you will be able to intonate that string). That exact octave separation is UNaffected by tuning or intonation adjustment.

The 12th-fret harmonic has one advantage when checking intonation by ear, because then you are trying to get the 12th-fretted note adjusted to be the same frequency. That match - or the lack of it - is much easier to hear than the match between the open string (an octave away) and the 12th-fretted note. Setting intonation by ear was the way it was always done before the advent of inexpensive electronic tuners.

People on youtube or in forums saying not to use the harmonic because "I don't play harmonics" completely misunderstand what intonation adjustment is doing. It is adjusting for fretting-induced sharpening (of the 12th-fretted note). It has nothing to do with adjusting the harmonic or whether or not you play harmonics.

As I say, use either the open string or the 12th-fret harmonic as your reference note ... it doesn't matter.

Fret the 12th fretted note (the thing you are adjusting) with your normal fretting pressure. It can also help to pick each note continuously so that a string's 'pitch glide' never kicks in (that causes a sustained note to drift down a little in frequency just after being picked ... and most people play mostly continuous, short-lived notes, so that's how you should tune and intonate).

The pattern of the saddles after string length adjustment should follow the characteristic pattern of progressively longer length for the high E, B, and G (plain) strings, then the wound strings follow a similar pattern. If any single string is completely out of that pattern, something is wrong with the string or its saddle position.

So the 59 reissue jazzmaster's D string you are having issues with should normally be a little shorter than most of the other strings, similar to the high E. So it shouldn't be anywhere near reaching the limit of the intonation screw adjustment in the other direction (if that's what you're saying).

When intonating the rocking bridge it's always worth checking that the front tip of the intonation screw is not fouling the string in front of the saddle. Nor is the string touching the back or front edge of the bridge plate.

After intonating correctly at the saddles with the 12th fretted note, fretted notes on the lowest frets can still be sharp if the nut slots are too high (which means the string has to be bent more over the nut to get it down onto those frets .. which sharpens the note).

[gnuyork]

You might try detuning the D string and/or removing it from the saddle. That might make adjustments with the screw easier.

I did this. I actually parked the d string on the a saddle.

[gnuyork]

There is no difference between using the open string or the 12th-fret harmonic as your reference note - that you initially tune the string to. Those two notes are always exactly an octave apart (unless you have a bad string, in which case it is unlikely that you will be able to intonate that string). That exact octave separation is UNaffected by tuning or intonation adjustment.

The 12th-fret harmonic has one advantage when checking intonation by ear, because then you are trying to get the 12th-fretted note adjusted to be the same frequency. That match - or the lack of it - is much easier to hear than the match between the open string (an octave away) and the 12th-fretted note. Setting intonation by ear was the way it was always done before the advent of inexpensive electronic tuners.

People on youtube or in forums saying not to use the harmonic because "I don't play harmonics" completely misunderstand what intonation adjustment is doing. It is adjusting for fretting-induced sharpening (of the 12th-fretted note). It has nothing to do with adjusting the harmonic or whether or not you play harmonics.

As I say, use either the open string or the 12th-fret harmonic as your reference note ... it doesn't matter.

Fret the 12th fretted note (the thing you are adjusting) with your normal fretting pressure. It can also help to pick each note continuously so that a string's 'pitch glide' never kicks in (that causes a sustained note to drift down a little in frequency just after being picked ... and most people play mostly continuous, short-lived notes, so that's how you should tune and intonate).

The pattern of the saddles after string length adjustment should follow the characteristic pattern of progressively longer length for the high E, B, and G (plain) strings, then the wound strings follow a similar pattern. If any single string is completely out of that pattern, something is wrong with the string or its saddle position.

So the 59 reissue jazzmaster's D string you are having issues with should normally be a little shorter than most of the other strings, similar to the high E. So it shouldn't be anywhere near reaching the limit of the intonation screw adjustment in the other direction (if that's what you're saying).

When intonating the rocking bridge it's always worth checking that the front tip of the intonation screw is not fouling the string in front of the saddle. Nor is the string touching the back or front edge of the bridge plate.

After intonating correctly at the saddles with the 12th fretted note, fretted notes on the lowest frets can still be sharp if the nut slots are too high (which means the string has to be bent more over the nut to get it down onto those frets .. which sharpens the note).

Thanks for this. Yes I did go back and forth between the 12th fret harmonic and the open string, actually. And I see your point about it being easier to notice by ear (which I did indeed notice). As far as the d saddle, it isn't at its limits that I can see, it's just I can't get the screw to budge any further without risk of stripping it (if I haven't already), which I found to be odd. The d saddle is almost even with the a saddle, but ever so slightly ahead of it (towards the nut direction).

All this being said, I've been reading up more, and it could be down to bad strings. The strings aren't fresh, but not anywhere near where I would normally replace them yet. So maybe it's my strings.