Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

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Futuron
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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by Futuron » Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:31 pm

.

I think this is what we're aiming for:

------------------------------------------------

Just the 3-way
When the slider is OFF, the output of the 3-way goes straight to the volume. The bonus pickup is left open circuit. The 'blend' pot has no effect.

3-way in series with bonus pickup
When the slider is ON, the output of the 3-way goes to 'ground' of the bonus pickup, and the 'hot' goes to the volume. The 'blend' pot comes into play, but only effecting the bonus pickup's level. (ie if the 'blend' pot is all the way down we get the effect of the slider being OFF - not the effect of the master volume being down, which is what we'd get if we tried to send signal off to ground)

-------------------------------------------------

The wiring is simple if not for the pot. Start with that, and you then just add the pot as a shunt across the bonus pickup. If it's all the way down, you've completely short-circuited the pickup. If it's all the way up, the signal takes the path of least resistance through the pickup, assuming the pot value is high enough. Part-way up would send some signal through each branch.

Something like this:
Image

What do you think?

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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by bodhi » Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:01 am

This one is a pickle... I was wondering if the intent was to have the blend to be available in all positions, which would make sense to me, but can't off the top of my head think of a wiring for that, that wouldn't be parallel based. The thought crossed my mind also to have a look at available (stacked) blender pot setups, but not sure if that'd work out differently since the series ground needs to be in line for the middle pickup. Would need to have a test bed set up and my gear is not ready for that right now.

I've come across the Partial Split resistor in previous searches for wiring: https://www.fralinpickups.com/2018/10/1 ... itars-101/ --- but thinking about it again now when typing it just becomes another parallel network.

Essentially you'd want some kind of mixing network after the three way switch, which by itself implies a parallel signal, however it's kind of a tap since what you're mixing in is the series signal.
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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by bodhi » Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:04 am

... actually, assuming a master blend (or that you'd just have a switch to toggle it out of the circuit), wouldn't it be as simple as a mixing pot:

Lug 1: post three-way-switch hot lead, connect to middle pickup ground
Lug 2: "out", ie. to jack
Lug 3: Middle pickup hot

Can't immediately find an issue with it...
Jazzmaster project (got a body, placeholder neck, some pickups and ideas)
Tokai Telecaster Thinline with Creamery Pickups Filtertron and Tapped Tele
Blake Mills-inspired Strat project w/ Gold Foil and slide pickup

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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by skern » Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:17 pm

Hey guys, just a quick question. If a hot wire travels from a pickup to a volume pot but along the way passes through a switch and connects to a jumper cable that leads to an unused lug, does this impact the sound in any way? This is what I mean (blue wire is the jumper):

Image

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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Mon Oct 26, 2020 1:00 am

Futuron wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:31 pm
I think this is what we're aiming for:

------------------------------------------------

Just the 3-way
When the slider is OFF, the output of the 3-way goes straight to the volume. The bonus pickup is left open circuit. The 'blend' pot has no effect.

3-way in series with bonus pickup
When the slider is ON, the output of the 3-way goes to 'ground' of the bonus pickup, and the 'hot' goes to the volume. The 'blend' pot comes into play, but only effecting the bonus pickup's level. (ie if the 'blend' pot is all the way down we get the effect of the slider being OFF - not the effect of the master volume being down, which is what we'd get if we tried to send signal off to ground)

-------------------------------------------------

The wiring is simple if not for the pot. Start with that, and you then just add the pot as a shunt across the bonus pickup. If it's all the way down, you've completely short-circuited the pickup. If it's all the way up, the signal takes the path of least resistance through the pickup, assuming the pot value is high enough. Part-way up would send some signal through each branch.

Something like this:
Image

What do you think?
That makes sense to me. I'm not an electrical engineer, so I'm not positive how it would work in practical application, but it sounds right.

bodhi wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:01 am
This one is a pickle... I was wondering if the intent was to have the blend to be available in all positions, which would make sense to me, but can't off the top of my head think of a wiring for that, that wouldn't be parallel based. The thought crossed my mind also to have a look at available (stacked) blender pot setups, but not sure if that'd work out differently since the series ground needs to be in line for the middle pickup. Would need to have a test bed set up and my gear is not ready for that right now.

I've come across the Partial Split resistor in previous searches for wiring: https://www.fralinpickups.com/2018/10/1 ... itars-101/ --- but thinking about it again now when typing it just becomes another parallel network.

Essentially you'd want some kind of mixing network after the three way switch, which by itself implies a parallel signal, however it's kind of a tap since what you're mixing in is the series signal.
The intent was definitely not a master blend. He only wants to blend in a little of the middle pickup, while the bridge and neck pickups both have full strength (assuming the master volume pot is turned all the way up). It's definitely a strange blend of series (pickup) and parallel (blend pot). Pickle is right.

bodhi wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:04 am
... actually, assuming a master blend (or that you'd just have a switch to toggle it out of the circuit), wouldn't it be as simple as a mixing pot:

Lug 1: post three-way-switch hot lead, connect to middle pickup ground
Lug 2: "out", ie. to jack
Lug 3: Middle pickup hot

Can't immediately find an issue with it...
This one is a bit beyond me, but the rough theory sounds possible. I don't have my testing setup ready yet either, otherwise I'd just solder a pot like that and try it.

skern wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:17 pm
Hey guys, just a quick question. If a hot wire travels from a pickup to a volume pot but along the way passes through a switch and connects to a jumper cable that leads to an unused lug, does this impact the sound in any way? This is what I mean (blue wire is the jumper):

Image
I'm not sure what you're going for here... Are you pursuing a specific mod or just curious about general theory?
Pickup Switching Mad Scientist
http://www.offsetguitars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=104282&p=1438384#p1438384

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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by skern » Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:22 pm

Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 1:00 am
I'm not sure what you're going for here... Are you pursuing a specific mod or just curious about general theory?
Yeah I was just curious about the general theory, but I think I figured it out.

(EDIT: I deleted a bunch of stuff with a previous wiring that I've since discarded)

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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by jonnyrocket » Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:41 am

Hi, I have been looking for ideas on how to accomplish the following wiring. Hopefully someone can help!

I am planning on getting the Curtis Novak JM-V (neck) and JM-Fat (bridge) and I want to have the traditional Jazzmaster wiring along with the Rhythm circuit but I would like to make some additions. I thought of installing a Free-Way 3X3-05 6 position toggle switch as well as a treble bleed mod and also allow the Rhythm circuit to work with the switch in order to use it with the bridge pickups as well as the neck+bridge. I'm hoping this switch will allow me to accomplish the following positions:

Positions

1. Neck
2. Neck+Bridge in parallel
3. Bridge
4. Neck+Bridge in Series/In Phase
5. Neck+Bridge in Series/Out of Phase
6. Neck+Bridge in Parallel/Out of Phase

Since I am new to Jazzmasters, do you think these pickups would sound well in positions 4-6? If so, do you know how I could combine the wiring diagram from Free-Way with the traditional Jazzmaster wiring? I am attaching a copy of the Free-Way diagram just in case!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11MhfA3 ... sp=sharing

I look forward to seeing people's ideas and inputs!

Jon

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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by bodhi » Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:47 pm

jonnyrocket wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:41 am
Hi, I have been looking for ideas on how to accomplish the following wiring. Hopefully someone can help!

I am planning on getting the Curtis Novak JM-V (neck) and JM-Fat (bridge) and I want to have the traditional Jazzmaster wiring along with the Rhythm circuit but I would like to make some additions. I thought of installing a Free-Way 3X3-05 6 position toggle switch as well as a treble bleed mod and also allow the Rhythm circuit to work with the switch in order to use it with the bridge pickups as well as the neck+bridge. I'm hoping this switch will allow me to accomplish the following positions:

Positions

1. Neck
2. Neck+Bridge in parallel
3. Bridge
4. Neck+Bridge in Series/In Phase
5. Neck+Bridge in Series/Out of Phase
6. Neck+Bridge in Parallel/Out of Phase

Since I am new to Jazzmasters, do you think these pickups would sound well in positions 4-6? If so, do you know how I could combine the wiring diagram from Free-Way with the traditional Jazzmaster wiring? I am attaching a copy of the Free-Way diagram just in case!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11MhfA3 ... sp=sharing

I look forward to seeing people's ideas and inputs!

Jon
Not really sure from the text how you mean that the "traditional Jazzmaster wiring" should work. If you're talking about using the rhythm toggle switch to replace volume and tone, then sure. Wire the freeway switch up as in the diagram, and use the toggle switch to move between sets of potentiometers.

Personally I haven't yet found that many out of phase sounds that I like, but haven't tried those pickups specifically. I have a few freeway switches I'm about to wire up, but one of the pickups is a humbucker in those setups, so I have other uses for the extra positions than OoP.

FWIW, the 6 way freeway switch is essentially a 4p6t, which has a rotary counterpart, so you could look for wiring diagrams for those if you don't already know how to figure out wirings on your own.
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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by jonnyrocket » Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:19 am

Thanks for your help bodhi,

By traditional Jazzmaster wiring i mean that I want to have the rhythm circuit operational and not get rid of it. The modification I would like to make is to be able to use the rhythm circuit with the bridge pickup and the combination of both as well.

I did see that the 6 way freeway switch is a rotary switch but I like the toggle format because I would like to keep the looks of the guitar as original to a Jazzmaster as possible.

Do you know resources where I could learn about how these various types of witches work? I have very little understanding of what all the terminals on them do. I have found these links helpful but I need to learn more!

https://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/tips ... hes-part-1
https://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/tips ... hes-part-2
https://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/late ... hes-part-3

For now it seems that it might be a lot easier to go with two push/pull knobs, use one for both pickups in series and in phase and the other one to turn both pickups either out of phase in series or in parallel. Maybe the out of phase would sound better with the series option given that the parallel one might be very thin sounding?

It seems the diagram provided by Shadoweclipse13 on the link below shows how to do it with push/pull pots as well as adding the bridge pickup to the rhythm circuit.
https://offsetguitars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=110304

Thank you all for your help!
Jon

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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by bodhi » Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:56 am

jonnyrocket wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:19 am
By traditional Jazzmaster wiring i mean that I want to have the rhythm circuit operational and not get rid of it. The modification I would like to make is to be able to use the rhythm circuit with the bridge pickup and the combination of both as well.
Yeah, still not getting it, could you spell out what you'd like to achieve in more detail, so there's less ambiguity?
jonnyrocket wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:19 am
I did see that the 6 way freeway switch is a rotary switch but I like the toggle format because I would like to keep the looks of the guitar as original to a Jazzmaster as possible.
It's not a rotary itself, but functionally equivalent, as there are rotary versions of a "four pole six throw" (4p6t) switches. I understand, but have been using a rotary variation as a placeholder to figure out what I might want to use the different position for.
jonnyrocket wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:19 am
Do you know resources where I could learn about how these various types of witches work? I have very little understanding of what all the terminals on them do. I have found these links helpful but I need to learn more!
Read through the Wiring DIY blog post series here: http://hermeticoguitar.blogspot.com/p/wiring-diy.html It's pretty thorough and goes through pretty much everything you might ever need.
jonnyrocket wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:19 am

For now it seems that it might be a lot easier to go with two push/pull knobs, use one for both pickups in series and in phase and the other one to turn both pickups either out of phase in series or in parallel. Maybe the out of phase would sound better with the series option given that the parallel one might be very thin sounding?
Your taste is not my taste, and I have no idea how your pickups might sound with all the wirings. It starts to be kind of complex, since specific out of phase wirings might be really good situationally, but not something you necessarily would return to a lot. I can't say, it starts to depend on your specific gear and a lot of different things, so I'd suggest going for anything you can think of, just to not obsess over it later because you never tried :) Then when you've played around with things, you'll probably find what a specific guitar should be like.

jonnyrocket wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:19 am

It seems the diagram provided by Shadoweclipse13 on the link below shows how to do it with push/pull pots as well as adding the bridge pickup to the rhythm circuit.
https://offsetguitars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=110304
That might be an interesting take. You can use the freeway in place of the three-way switch, if that was somehow related to the original plan...
Jazzmaster project (got a body, placeholder neck, some pickups and ideas)
Tokai Telecaster Thinline with Creamery Pickups Filtertron and Tapped Tele
Blake Mills-inspired Strat project w/ Gold Foil and slide pickup

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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by timtam » Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:31 pm

Good resource on switch contacts here ...
https://guitarelectronics.com/guitar-wi ... nnections/

Not a JM, but on a jag OOP is similarly quacky in series and parallel (eg Am Pro). A little fuller in series but not much. OOP has a narrow use IMO. The Ultra is the only JM with OOP (with volume rollers). Whether OOP is more or less useful than say the jag's strangle switch (high pass) ? ... YMMV (Marr jag has separate strangle switches for series and parallel).

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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by mbene085 » Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:49 pm

Futuron wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:31 pm
.

I think this is what we're aiming for:

------------------------------------------------

Just the 3-way
When the slider is OFF, the output of the 3-way goes straight to the volume. The bonus pickup is left open circuit. The 'blend' pot has no effect.

3-way in series with bonus pickup
When the slider is ON, the output of the 3-way goes to 'ground' of the bonus pickup, and the 'hot' goes to the volume. The 'blend' pot comes into play, but only effecting the bonus pickup's level. (ie if the 'blend' pot is all the way down we get the effect of the slider being OFF - not the effect of the master volume being down, which is what we'd get if we tried to send signal off to ground)

-------------------------------------------------

The wiring is simple if not for the pot. Start with that, and you then just add the pot as a shunt across the bonus pickup. If it's all the way down, you've completely short-circuited the pickup. If it's all the way up, the signal takes the path of least resistance through the pickup, assuming the pot value is high enough. Part-way up would send some signal through each branch.

Something like this:
Image

What do you think?
Thanks, your explanation makes sense to me. I can try wiring this up when I get a chance and see how it works. I'll be repurposing the 1M pot from the rhythm circuit, so hopefully that works well. I see what you mean about the pot just shorting the pickup out of the circuit, rather than shorting out the hot signal coming from the bridge and neck pickups.
bodhi wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:04 am
... actually, assuming a master blend (or that you'd just have a switch to toggle it out of the circuit), wouldn't it be as simple as a mixing pot:

Lug 1: post three-way-switch hot lead, connect to middle pickup ground
Lug 2: "out", ie. to jack
Lug 3: Middle pickup hot

Can't immediately find an issue with it...
That was my initial instinct, but I'm not great with figuring out what pots are doing at intermediate values. I started worrying that, since the "lead circuit" (bridge and/or neck) signal would be heading to the pot, I might end up bleeding that signal to ground when I only meant to short out the middle pickup's signal.

The goal is to hide two telecaster neck pickups inside the neck pickup cover of a JM, and use the "secondary neck" (middle...ish...) pickup in series as a sort of variable, preset boost determined by the volume roller in the rhythm circuit, and activated by the rhythm switch. That way, whatever pickup position I'm in on the lead circuit, I can add in either a full or partial "middle" pickup signal in series to increase output and mids, then switch it back out when desired. More practical (to me, at least) and repeatable than the strat-style blender circuit that relies on turning a knob up and down to bring that pickup in and out of the signal path.

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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by jonnyrocket » Tue Nov 03, 2020 3:33 am

bodhi wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:56 am
jonnyrocket wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:19 am
By traditional Jazzmaster wiring i mean that I want to have the rhythm circuit operational and not get rid of it. The modification I would like to make is to be able to use the rhythm circuit with the bridge pickup and the combination of both as well.
Yeah, still not getting it, could you spell out what you'd like to achieve in more detail, so there's less ambiguity?
jonnyrocket wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:19 am
I did see that the 6 way freeway switch is a rotary switch but I like the toggle format because I would like to keep the looks of the guitar as original to a Jazzmaster as possible.
It's not a rotary itself, but functionally equivalent, as there are rotary versions of a "four pole six throw" (4p6t) switches. I understand, but have been using a rotary variation as a placeholder to figure out what I might want to use the different position for.
jonnyrocket wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:19 am
Do you know resources where I could learn about how these various types of witches work? I have very little understanding of what all the terminals on them do. I have found these links helpful but I need to learn more!
Read through the Wiring DIY blog post series here: http://hermeticoguitar.blogspot.com/p/wiring-diy.html It's pretty thorough and goes through pretty much everything you might ever need.
jonnyrocket wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:19 am

For now it seems that it might be a lot easier to go with two push/pull knobs, use one for both pickups in series and in phase and the other one to turn both pickups either out of phase in series or in parallel. Maybe the out of phase would sound better with the series option given that the parallel one might be very thin sounding?
Your taste is not my taste, and I have no idea how your pickups might sound with all the wirings. It starts to be kind of complex, since specific out of phase wirings might be really good situationally, but not something you necessarily would return to a lot. I can't say, it starts to depend on your specific gear and a lot of different things, so I'd suggest going for anything you can think of, just to not obsess over it later because you never tried :) Then when you've played around with things, you'll probably find what a specific guitar should be like.

jonnyrocket wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:19 am

It seems the diagram provided by Shadoweclipse13 on the link below shows how to do it with push/pull pots as well as adding the bridge pickup to the rhythm circuit.
https://offsetguitars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=110304
That might be an interesting take. You can use the freeway in place of the three-way switch, if that was somehow related to the original plan...
Thanks for your help bodhi,

I have found several people who have tried using these rotary switches from Free-Way and many of them told me they were quite challenging to solder given that the terminals are right next to each other. I think for now I have modified my idea as follows:

I want the guitar to have the traditional modality with the lead circuit with the following positions available via the three way toggle switch:
neck
neck+bridge (in phase and parallel)
bridge

Then I would like to add a push/pull 1meg pot to be able to use the neck+bridge in series and in phase when the toggle switch is in the middle position. I guess in this case if the push/pull pot is activated it would only work on the middle position of the toggle. I'm not sure what would happen if the pot is activated and the toggle is placed either on the first or third position.

Rhythm circuit
When rhythm circuit switch is engaged I would like for the rhythm circuit to not be exclusive to the neck pickup but I would like to be able to use there three way toggle switch in order to select either the neck, bridge or neck+bridge in phase and in parallel.

Let me know if you have any questions!

I printed out all the Seymour Duncan explanations of the pots and switches and will be reading them this week to learn how these components work. I will also go over the link you provided!

I have found the below schematic very close to what I want:
This one shows how to wire the three-way toggle to work with both pickups when the rhythm circuit is engaged
Image

Now I just need to figure out how to add one push/pull pot to the diagram in order to put both neck and bridge in series and in phase when the toggle is in the center position. It would be great if the push/pull could activate series and in phase with both the lead and the rhythm circuit. I am assuming in this way, when i'm using series with the lead circuit it would be brighter than when using both pickups in series with the rhythm circuit.

Thanks for your time!
Jon

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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by bodhi » Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:16 am

jonnyrocket wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 3:33 am

I have found several people who have tried using these rotary switches from Free-Way and many of them told me they were quite challenging to solder given that the terminals are right next to each other.
Yeah, it's a bit fiddly. There's a variation out there with loose colored wire, but I guess you might have bought yours already...
jonnyrocket wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 3:33 am

I want the guitar to have the traditional modality with the lead circuit with the following positions available via the three way toggle switch:
neck
neck+bridge (in phase and parallel)
bridge

Then I would like to add a push/pull 1meg pot to be able to use the neck+bridge in series and in phase when the toggle switch is in the middle position. I guess in this case if the push/pull pot is activated it would only work on the middle position of the toggle. I'm not sure what would happen if the pot is activated and the toggle is placed either on the first or third position.

Rhythm circuit
When rhythm circuit switch is engaged I would like for the rhythm circuit to not be exclusive to the neck pickup but I would like to be able to use there three way toggle switch in order to select either the neck, bridge or neck+bridge in phase and in parallel.


Now I just need to figure out how to add one push/pull pot to the diagram in order to put both neck and bridge in series and in phase when the toggle is in the center position. It would be great if the push/pull could activate series and in phase with both the lead and the rhythm circuit. I am assuming in this way, when i'm using series with the lead circuit it would be brighter than when using both pickups in series with the rhythm circuit.
OK, good, thanks for the details, this we can work with :) The base approach would basically be to use a modified approach to what you liked earlier, just remove the switch, keeping the wire that's being indicated by the blue color:

Image

However, this will make the series switch always override what the three-way toggle switch does, no matter if you're using "Lead" or "Rhythm" circuits. The core issue with making it work like you describe is that 1) the typical JM / Gibson style three-way toggle switch doesn't have enough connection points to do other things in the middle position, so you'd need something else, and 2) the only way I've wired up the series/parallel switch in this setup requires a 3pdt switch, and the push-pull pots are 2p2t. Not sure if someone else might have a way to make it work.

But at least with the adapted wiring you can try it out to see if it's something to work with.
Jazzmaster project (got a body, placeholder neck, some pickups and ideas)
Tokai Telecaster Thinline with Creamery Pickups Filtertron and Tapped Tele
Blake Mills-inspired Strat project w/ Gold Foil and slide pickup

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Re: Shadoweclipse13's Master Schematic Page!

Post by bodhi » Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:20 am

mbene085 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:49 pm
bodhi wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:04 am
... actually, assuming a master blend (or that you'd just have a switch to toggle it out of the circuit), wouldn't it be as simple as a mixing pot:

Lug 1: post three-way-switch hot lead, connect to middle pickup ground
Lug 2: "out", ie. to jack
Lug 3: Middle pickup hot

Can't immediately find an issue with it...
That was my initial instinct, but I'm not great with figuring out what pots are doing at intermediate values. I started worrying that, since the "lead circuit" (bridge and/or neck) signal would be heading to the pot, I might end up bleeding that signal to ground when I only meant to short out the middle pickup's signal.
Yeah, not sure if this is something that would work with passive elecronics or not... In any case, there's a lot of relatively involved blend wirings if you have a look at bass diagram, unless what's been posted here already solved the issue.
Jazzmaster project (got a body, placeholder neck, some pickups and ideas)
Tokai Telecaster Thinline with Creamery Pickups Filtertron and Tapped Tele
Blake Mills-inspired Strat project w/ Gold Foil and slide pickup

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