JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

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AcrylicSuperman
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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Sat Jul 10, 2021 4:53 pm

Amon 7.L wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 12:06 pm
Truth to be told, my real and true curiosity nowadays resides in how Blue 1.0 looks today.
I hope we get the chance to see some hi quality shots for the celebration of Nevermind's 30th Anniversary.
This right here may be the one thing I am excited about with this reissue. If it's true that they got to examine blue (and I believe it is), then I am hoping that this reissue will come with a book like the Jaguar did or that Fender will release a video showcasing both blue and red in more detail, even if we red 2.0 isn't the original red. They may be releasing this for the 30th anniversary of nevermind, but they wont just leave it at that. There will be more to this, I feel. We just have to wait it out.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by CROSS_guitars » Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:29 pm

Another tiny detail, there is now a tiny routed notch in the pickguard to adjust the truss rod. Modern 'F' stamped neck plate which is weird because the main logo is the spaghetti logo.
And I am wondering if these bodies are as thick as the MIJ, which were 45mm. I have a feeling these might be 40mm with a larger round-over.
That would be kinda cool if that's the case.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:18 pm

Noticed that the string tree is ever so slightly pushed back, marking yet another string tree location for the jagstang.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:43 pm

I wanted to make a post here just in case one of our readers owns one. I'm looking for neck measurements for vintage mustangs between 1969-1971.

Judging by examples of 69 Mustang models, I personally believe Kurt's is not a 69 as believed. All measurments of 69's have been extremely thick and we know that Kurt asked for a thin neck and handed Larry his competition mustang. I am actively looking for significant profile changes within those years. If you own a vintage example, please reach out.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by CROSS_guitars » Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:34 pm

Another small detail on these new jag-stangs. White side dot material drilled in between the maple and rosewood, instead of the black dots floating under the fretboard line.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Noirie. » Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:52 am

I always thought he had Fender copy the neck of the “In Bloom” video Mustang.

In his original Polaroid the Mustang looks more Daphne Blue than LPB imo.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:34 pm

Noirie. wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:52 am
I always thought he had Fender copy the neck of the “In Bloom” video Mustang.

In his original Polaroid the Mustang looks more Daphne Blue than LPB imo.
According to Larry Brooks, Kurt showed him his competition model but wouldn't let Larry take it due to it being sent to the studio for In Utero sessions.

But he could have used that guitar in the polaroid. There is at least two sets of polaroid mockups for sure. One of them even features his other Fender Jaguar.

He did do a polaroid mock up live for Larry and Mark using the compstang. Not sure which Jaguar though

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:48 pm

I wanted to make a correction about the Jagstang Prototype that I discovered tonight. It's a minor detail but it's an important one.

So Amon and I noticed that the headstock had writing under ther Fender logo and with Gary Jarman's help, we determined that it said "Custom". When Gary informed us that it said custom, I knew that I had seen the decal elsewhere and I showed Gary this very decal and he said the fonts matched.

Image

The only difference is that the word "custom" starts at tye end on the n in Fender. This decal was used on the 1959-64 Telecaster Custom. It makes sense for the custom shop to use a vintage decal because they are in the market of replicating their vintage instruments. We assumed the word "telecaster" was cut off and the word "custom" was shifted over to make the logo look more symetrical. And you could do it that way. But.....

Tonight, I discovered a decal that I didn't know existed. It is from this same time frame and from the same family. The fender logo is the correct logo and the word "custom" is in the correct place. Therefore, I no longer believe that it was the 59-64 Telecaster Custom decal but rather the 1959-1968 Esquire Custom decal instead.

Image

Having said that, either decal would work. I never knew that that specific Esquire decal existed but we were still on the right track.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by manwithtitties » Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:54 pm

damn so the most recent fsr squier esquires which had dumb headstock logos imo are actually kind of vintage correct? Thats crazy

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:41 pm

manwithtitties wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:54 pm
damn so the most recent fsr squier esquires which had dumb headstock logos imo are actually kind of vintage correct? Thats crazy
Interesting enough, the Telecaster decals changed a lot over the years, but the vintage Esquire decals did not. Probably because they purchased decals in bulk and the Esquire wasn't as popular. There were only 4 vintage Esquire decals as far as I know.

There is the 1951-1961 decal:

Image

The 1959-1968 custom decal:

Image

The 1967-1968 decal:

Image

And the 1968-1976 decal:

Image

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by countertext » Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:26 pm

Since this is a very detail-oriented thread, I feel compelled to point out that a Custom Telecaster and a Telecaster Custom are two different models and should not be conflated.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:47 am

countertext wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:26 pm
Since this is a very detail-oriented thread, I feel compelled to point out that a Custom Telecaster and a Telecaster Custom are two different models and should not be conflated.
This is true. Fender does classify them as essentially being the same line though, despite their name differences. They consider the Telecaster Custom to be the second imagining, so to speak. Fender talks about them briefly in this article.

https://www.fender.com/articles/gear/a- ... stom-story

But in the event that anyone is confused. The earlier custom telecaster/esquire would have been a standard tele/esquire but with a double bound body. The Telecaster Custom of the 70s was a telecaster with a more full size pickguard, featured two volume and two tone controls, kept the telecaster bridge and pickup but featured Seth Lover's wide range humbucker in the neck.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by BTL » Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:08 am

AcrylicSuperman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:48 pm
[...] The fender logo is the correct logo and the word "custom" is in the correct place. Therefore, I no longer believe that it was the 59-64 Telecaster Custom decal but rather the 1959-1968 Esquire Custom decal instead.

Image

Having said that, either decal would work. I never knew that that specific Esquire decal existed but we were still on the right track.
I have been thinking that I'd like to pick up a current Fender guitar and have the headstock painted to match the body. If I did that, I'd love to use one of these decals.

Do you know if they are available anywhere?
Owner, Lowe Custom Guitars

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:30 am

BeeTL wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:08 am
AcrylicSuperman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:48 pm
[...] The fender logo is the correct logo and the word "custom" is in the correct place. Therefore, I no longer believe that it was the 59-64 Telecaster Custom decal but rather the 1959-1968 Esquire Custom decal instead.

Image

Having said that, either decal would work. I never knew that that specific Esquire decal existed but we were still on the right track.
I have been thinking that I'd like to pick up a current Fender guitar and have the headstock painted to match the body. If I did that, I'd love to use one of these decals.

Do you know if they are available anywhere?
I'll hit you up in a PM.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Knatti » Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:27 am

Those Tune-O-Matics

First of all, I would like to thank everyone who made this thread what it is. Above all Amon 7.L and AcrylicSuperman for their constant research on the subject – you guys are great!

Even if it seems small-minded in total, I would like to share my own research to a detail of this topic with all of you, who want to built an as close as can get replica of Kurts guitars – either a Mustang or a Jag-Stang.

1. Cobain and those Tune-O-Matics

One of the first left-handed guitars with a Tune-O-Matic style bridge that Kurt bought, was Martin Jenners Jaguar. It came with a blackchrome Schaller GTM bridge with brass saddles. On Fenders 2014 all-neck-wrong interpretation of Cobains Jaguar, the bridge is an aged nickel Nashville style Tune-O-Matic with hard zinc saddle made by Gotoh Japan.

It´s been widley reported, that Kurt favored the Tune-O-Matic after aquiring the Jaguar from Mart Jenner in May 1991. Together with the Tune-O-Matic, two names often appear in books, magazines and internet articles related to Kurts guitars:

Steward Mac Donald (StewMac) - a guitar supplier since 1968, based in Athens/Ohio

Gotoh Gut Co., Ltd. (GOTOH) – a manufacturer of stringed instrument parts since 1960, based in Isesaki/Japan

StewMac is a supplier, so my focus was on Gotoh as a manufacturer and favored brand of Kurts Tune-O-Matic bridges.


2. Gotohs Tune-O-Matic history


At the beginning of the 1980s, Gotoh only made machine heads for guitars, basses and banjos. That changed in 1986 with Gotohs new line of Tune-O-Matic style bridges 'GE101B' and 'GE101B-T'.

Image

1986-1989

GE101B – ABR-1 style bridge with thumbwheel height adjustment (Standard Tune-o-matic )
GE101B-T – larger posts, adjustable slothead height adjustment (Modern Tune-o-matic )

-Both bridges have a ABR-1 size (11 mm wide)
-Slotted intonation screws, without retainer wire (like 1954-1962 Gibson ABR-1)
-Flat bridge saddles, facing 3 up, 3 down (3/3) stock
-Zinc Diecast with hard zinc saddle
-stamped 'GOTOH' with company logo underneath
-Finishes: Chrome (C), Nickel (N) or Gold (GG)
-12“ radius

1990

GE101B & GE101B-T discontinued
GE103B & GE103B-T introduced

changes compared to predecessor:

-Both 'new' bridges have a Nashville size (14 mm wide)
-Bridge posts diameter on Standard Tune-O-Matic 0,5 mm larger (now 4,5 mm)
-Larger wheels on Standard Tune-o-matic (+1 mm)

1999


GE103B & GE103B-T updated

changes compared to predecessor:

-phillips intonation screws
-nut added
-pre-notched bridge saddles
-additional finishes: Black (B), Cosmo Black (CK)
-stamped 'GOTOH® Japan 103B' with company logo underneath.

2002


GE104B introduced

-ABR-1 size (11 mm wide)
-phillips intonation screws
-nut added
-pre-notched bridge saddles
-finishes: Chrome (C), Nickel (N), Gold (GG), Black (B), Cosmo Black (CK)
-Stamped 'GOTOH® Japan' with companys logo underneath

GEP103B & GEP103B-T & GEP104B introduced

-All three have plastic saddles
-Finishes: Chrome (C), Nickel (N), Gold (GG), Cosmo Black (CK) and VC (Violet Chrome)


2006


VC (Violet Chrome) for GEP series discontinued


2010

GEP103B & GEP103B-T discontinued
AS103B & AS103-B introduced

-both have aluminum bronze saddles
-finishes: Chrome (C), Nickel (N), Gold (GG), Cosmo Black (CK)


2012

-new finish: Black Chrome (B)


2016

Ti103B & Ti103B-T & Ti104B introduced


-all three have titanium saddles
-finishes: Chrome (C), Nickel (N), Gold (GG), Black Chrome (B), Cosmo Black (CK)



3. What Gotoh Tune-O-Matic did Kurt used on his guitars?


Competion Mustang

'...the bridge was replaced with a Stewart MacDonald Gotoh Tune-O-Matic (Kurt's favorite)(57) before the Argentina trip.' - kurtsequipment.com. If this is true, than it only can be...

Image

1990 Gotoh GE101B-T

-slothead height adjustment
-big posts (6,5 mm)
-flat top intonation screws with rounded edge
-ABR-1 size, no retainer wire (bridge is 11 mm wide, wheels are 15 mm diameter)
-Gotoh frame (wider on the screw side)
-hard zinc saddles

Installation:
-non reverse (intonation screws facing neck)
-saddles facing E-e: Up-Up-Up-Down-Up-Up
-straight mounted

Oranj-Stang

Image

Gibson Nashville Tune-O-Matic

-Nashville size bridge made in Germany by Schaller for Gibson
-thumbwheel height adjustment screws
-round head intonation screws
-big frame
-visible drill marks to fit metric 4,5 mm posts (right)
-zmac bridge with chrome platted zmac saddles

Installation:
-reverse (intonation screws facing cigar tube)
-saddles facing all up
-straight mounted

Skystang I

Image

Gibson Nashville Tune-O-Matic

-Nashville size bridge made in Germany by Schaller for Gibson
-thumbwheel height adjustment screws
-round head intonation screws
-big frame
-visible drill marks to fit metric 4,5 mm posts (right)
-zmac bridge with chrome platted zmac saddles

Installation:
-non-reverse
-saddles facing E-e: Up-Down-Down-Up-Down-Down
-straight mounted


Skystang II


Image

Non Gotoh ABR-1 (Gibson?)

-Retainer Wire
-thumbwheel height adjustment
-Wired ABR-1 Screws
-small posts
-visible gap between thumbwheels and bridge

Installation:

-non-reverse
-saddles facing E-e: Down-Down-Up-Down-Down-Down
-angled mounted

Skystang III

Image

Non Gotoh ABR-1 (Gibson?)

-Wired ABR-1 Screws
-No Retainer Wire
-thumbwheel height adjustment
-small posts

Installation:

-non-reverse
-saddles facing E-e: Down-Down-Up-Up-Up-Up
-angled mounted


4. Conclusion

Image

We have two non Gotoh ABR-1 style bridges on Skystang II & III that could be Gibsons and two Gibson Nashville Tune-O-Matic bridges made by Schaller on Oranj-Stang and Skystang I. The quote is true, there is an < 1990 Gotoh GE101B-T on the Compstang.

Therefore it´s VERY likely that there is no GOTOH ABR-1 Tuneomatic bridge on Blue also. Blues Tune-O-Matic is angled and has thumbwheel height adjustment screws with small posts. Gotoh bridges back then had not to be angled, because they already had the Nashville size of 14 mm.

Also, in 1993 there is no ABR-1 from Gotoh at all. The only Gotoh ABR-1 style bridge ever made, is the 1986-1989 GE101B.
Gotoh never made any retainer wire ABR-1 style bridges, nor wired ABR-1 Screws. If you want to built a Compstang or order a new 'Gotoh Tune-o-matic Bridge with Standard Posts' from Stew-Mac, or the Warmoth 'Gotoh Tune-O-Matic Bridge' (SKU: TOM1 = GE103B-T ) for your built or mod, you get the updated GE103B, that has not being changed since 1999. Since there was no updated version of that bridge in Jag-Stang time, it will not be the bridge, that Kurt used on his Competition Mustang or on one of his other guitars.

If you would like to write Seymour about a Custom 59, digging old SRV-Strats for a 93 Texas Special bridge PUP, don´t forget to get a vintage / NOS / new Schaller GTM or (Gibson) ABR-1. Hard zinc saddles sound totally different than brass. It´s not that easy, but maybe another piece in the soup.

And for these 'Gotoh tuners' that Kurt liked so much:

For the Mustang/Jag-Stang: Gotoh SD91-05M-L Nickel (back then) / SD91-05M-N (today)
For the Jaguar and 1993 black Strat: Gotoh SGE-01-R Chrome
For the D-18E: Gotoh SE700-06M-N / SE770-06M-N

By the way, recently I had the chance to grab my hands and calipers on a 69 Competition neck, stamped:

20 MAR 69 B"
wide at nut: 1.60"
Thickness 1st fret: 0.83"
Thickness 12th fret: 0.89"

With the Competion Neck in my hands, all my doubts started again, even if Larry Brooks said otherwise.

I never believed, that the neck of the Jag-Stang production model is a copy of a 69 Competition neck.
Maybe Blue and Red 1.0 have been. But only Peter Buck or the thief of Red 1.0 can proof.

The small necks that Kurt played on Hi-Fliers, Mark V and MG69 have more of that slinky C- / beefy D-shape of a Jag-Stang.
This is why I still believe, that the neck for the Jag-Stang production model was cloned from the Jaguar. That Mart Jenner neck, that we once had here:

'Jenner had very particular demands for the neck contour because of his playing technique and the small size of his hands.'

“Most of my instruments were custom-made because I like the absolute skin-
niest of necks that can possibly go on a guitar. These are V-necks with no cheeks
to them whatsoever. They drop right away from the edge of the fingerboard. I’m
not a grabber, I play very much over the neck.”


UNCOMMON SOUND
The Left-Handed Guitar Players That Changed Music
Volume One: Rock, Pop, Reggae, Punk, Metal
2006 by John Engel & Left Field Ventures sprl

https://www.olliehalsall.co.uk/uncommon ... jenner.pdf


Thanks for reading !
Last edited by Knatti on Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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