JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

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AcrylicSuperman
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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:51 pm

Hey everyone!

It's time for a long awaited update. Derek Duncan had the archives searched for records of Blue's pickup. The verdict: they do not have a record on this pickup.

Now, you may be thinking that this is bad news, but you'd be wrong. Here's why:

When I reached out to Larry about the guitar, he stated that he had had a spec sheet for that pickup and had gave it to Lee Bacon earlier that year. Lee Bacon owns Kurt's childhood home and is trying to have it turned into a museum. Since Washington state is my home state, if the museum ever opens, I have friends and family who can take photos of that spec sheet. I've searched high and low for Lee Bacon and he is an incredibly difficult person to find.

But the lack of a record does corroborate Larry's story, a story that has been untold for nearly 30 years. Everything Larry has told me, I have been able to confirm with about 99% accuracy. Some details he couldn't remember, some were slightly different. Very, very few of those details were disproven. He's been more accurate than some of Nirvana's own techs. Memory is a funny thing and 30 years is a long time. Every person I've spoke to about this guitar, whether techs, band mates, fender employees, etc, they all had different memories of the guitar. All of them had similar details but all of them had slight variations.

Based on memory, Larry discussed the humbucker inside blue and offered me a photo that I shared with you that shows a seymour duncan pickup instead of a dimarzio, so we know the Fender story and the story as told by Earnie Bailey is false. Larry did state that the humbucker in blue was based on a '59 model because Kurt requested such. The '59 model had some custom features: a short legged baseplate, the silver seymour duncan logo and possibly four conductor wiring. All of these details are confirmed. Larry also told me that he believed the humbucker had been lacquer potted, however, this is the one piece of information I was hoping to prove or disprove through the custom shop.

While I wasn't able to officially do so, I believe that we can reach a conclusion that the pickup was wax potted instead. According to Derek, he said the following.

"I’ve never seen a lacquer potted humbucker before. It would be pretty crusty and would probably have lacquer chipping off. The forbon on a single coil seems like it is able to absorb the lacquer a bit, compared to the nickel silver bottomplate and plastic bobbins where it would just sit on the surface. Also, single coils are lacquered where there is direct access to the coil so it can penetrate. The humbucker has tape around the coils to secure the pig tails. With that tape there, the lacquer cant get into the coil like wax with a vacuum applied. In a nutshell, the lacquer would be more microphonic, and probably get more microphonic over time."

Well, the Jarman's description of the guitar didn't state anything about the pickup flaking apart in recent history. In fact, they still described the pickup as being white, so the lacquer, if there, hadn't aged while the rest if the guitar had. That makes me believe that it wasn't lacquer potted. In addition, while I can specifically understand a microphonic pickup being designed for Kurt who did utilize feedback and such, it would make more sense for the pickup to be unpotted if they were to go that route. However, in either december 2nd or 3rd (can't confirm the exact day at the moment) Kurt played the guitar live and broke a string. He continued to sing for a moment before he could get away from the mic and pass it off for one of his mustangs. If the pickup had been microphonic, it should have been screaming during "Drain You" but it wasn't. This implies that the guitar was potted and not microphonic, likely due to a vacuum waxed potting.

Derek did offer another explanation as to why that record my not exist and why Larry may have had the copy. It may have been an SFC pickup, which stands for Shop Floor Custom. The custom shop would have likely been in charge of these orders at the time, but they weren't really custom pickups. All of those features can be ordered directly from the shop floor. If this is the case, then the humbucker in blue truly is a standard '59 with cosmetic changes. Derek also stated that the bobbins changed a little, but the wire and magnet recipe on that pickup has not changed at all in this gap of time. The '59 you can buy today is essentially the same as what would have been in Kurt's guitar then.

While the pickup for Red was ordered with a four conductor wiring, I have reason to suspect that Blue's may have had a 2 conductor. Larry did state that Blue was wired exactly like a mustang. Therefore, there would have been no need for the extra wiring options. With Red being 4 conductor, it does at least showcase that Kurt did give some feedback. But that also implies that he didn't want contours because he also would have asked for them. The early production models were wired like a mustang too and then they changed it to the current diagram, being the same as the kc mustangs.

Having said all of this, before you go out and decide you are going to order a bunch of '59s to Jagstang specs from Seymour Duncan, the shop is absolutely slammed at the moment. At one point during the pandemic, they were building pickups out of their garages. They are now back in shop but severely behind. It took nearly the entire year for Derek to get back to my email. Seymour Duncan is currently not offering SFC pickups at the moment, so if you really, really want an accurate looking pickup in your jagstangs, the only way you can get it right now is via the custom shop at custom shop prices. Just wanted to give you guys a heads up. You'd be better off looking for one that fits the bill via a retailer at the moment. If you don't care about the looks, just find a short leg '59 and throw it in there. The pickup will be the same.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:32 am

Wanted to give a brief update. This is actually more for validation. I came across an article on Reverb.com where Tony Bacon published some interviews he had had with former Fender employees about the history of Fender for a book that he was writing. In 1992, Tony interviewed Bill Carson. The Bill Carson interview was archived and not used in his book. Bill unfortunately died in 2007, otherwise, I'd try to reach out to him for comment. He makes a very interesting statement in this interview. Bill is talking about taking part in the design of the iconic Stratocaster.

Keep in mind, this is 1992. Larry Brooks stated that in 1993, there were thefts and we proposed the likely theory that the original Red was likely stolen and replaced since the two body shapes that should have been cut on the exact same cnc machine with the exact same template somehow do not match each other. In fact, a couple fender employees basically confirmed this theory without exactly coming out and saying it. Here is an interesting selection from the interview with Bill Carson.
TB: Do you still own the Strat prototype you played?

BC: The original prototype of the Strat was stolen from Fender along with several other early models that were being stored with the expectation of some day having a Fender museum. We always suspected employee theft, but only one of the items has surfaced in the collection that was stolen that I know of. And I get calls from people now and then who think they have discovered my old prototype, but so far nothing. There are certain characteristics and marks on the guitar, some of them inside, some of them stamped in the metal, that only I know about, so it would make it easy to identify if it ever does surface.
That is a monumental statement. Not only were custom shop guitars being stolen, actual prototypes were being stolen. It's easy to see why Dan Smith may have suspected Larry Brooks, as a masterbuilder would have had access to such instruments. As we know, "Red" ended up in the Fender museum. We also know that Red was considered a prototype and would likely have been stored with other historic Fender prototypes. The thief clearly had high level clearance. It is extremely possible that Red was a casualty.

It's difficult to find Fender employees that will talk about these thefts. I'm guessing they aren't allowed to discuss them. There is a reason this interview was archived and I would guess the discussion of thefts at Fender was part of why it didn't see the light of day. Finding documentation like this is valuable, not only to history, but to the Jagstang story as well. We can back up Larry's claims with verifiable fact.

If you would like to read the entire interview with Bill Carson, here is a link. There are some others but I haven't had the chance to read them yet.

https://reverb.com/news/interview-weste ... etingCloud

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Lomic Guitars » Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:30 pm

Hello all! Long story short... I built one :) I followed all the specs and images in this thread as close as possible. Only liberties I took were using a trembucker 59 (just to get the logo), the ABR-1 bridge doesn't have a wire, and the neck is a slab-board Allparts Jaguar neck with the headstock reshaped, dots replaced, and back profile carved down to a classic .82"-.90" C shape. I'm really happy with it!

Forgive me, I'm not really sure what I'm doing with posting images, but they're all on Instagram here:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CaYAmPnO5F1/

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:03 pm

Lomic Guitars wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:30 pm
Hello all! Long story short... I built one :) I followed all the specs and images in this thread as close as possible. Only liberties I took were using a trembucker 59 (just to get the logo), the ABR-1 bridge doesn't have a wire, and the neck is a slab-board Allparts Jaguar neck with the headstock reshaped, dots replaced, and back profile carved down to a classic .82"-.90" C shape. I'm really happy with it!

Forgive me, I'm not really sure what I'm doing with posting images, but they're all on Instagram here:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CaYAmPnO5F1/

Congrats on the build! Enjoy and have fun!

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by FenderBob » Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:37 pm

Lomic Guitars wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:30 pm


Forgive me, I'm not really sure what I'm doing with posting images, but they're all on Instagram here:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CaYAmPnO5F1/
little help for ya.

Imagejag4 by murl99, on Flickr


Imagejag3 by murl99, on Flickr

Imagejag2 by murl99, on Flickr


Imagejag1 by murl99, on Flickr

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Lomic Guitars » Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:39 pm

FenderBob wrote:
Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:37 pm
Lomic Guitars wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:30 pm


Forgive me, I'm not really sure what I'm doing with posting images, but they're all on Instagram here:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CaYAmPnO5F1/
little help for ya.

Imagejag4 by murl99, on Flickr


Imagejag3 by murl99, on Flickr

Imagejag2 by murl99, on Flickr


Imagejag1 by murl99, on Flickr
Hot damn Thank you!!

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by FenderBob » Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:58 pm

Lomic Guitars wrote:
Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:39 pm

Hot damn Thank you!!
Your welcome......too cool to not share properly! 8)

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Amon 7.L » Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:12 am

Lomic Guitars wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:30 pm
Hello all! Long story short... I built one :) I followed all the specs and images in this thread as close as possible. Only liberties I took were using a trembucker 59 (just to get the logo), the ABR-1 bridge doesn't have a wire, and the neck is a slab-board Allparts Jaguar neck with the headstock reshaped, dots replaced, and back profile carved down to a classic .82"-.90" C shape. I'm really happy with it!

Forgive me, I'm not really sure what I'm doing with posting images, but they're all on Instagram here:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CaYAmPnO5F1/
Oh Oh Oh! Very nice build you've got there!
Well done!

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by BTL » Sat Feb 26, 2022 9:53 am

Beautiful! I had hoped the Fender Custom Shop would offer a Blue 1.0 replica, but it was not meant to be.
Owner, Lowe Custom Guitars

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by dc » Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:58 am

Lomic Guitars wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:30 pm
Hello all! Long story short... I built one :)
https://www.instagram.com/p/CaYAmPnO5F1/
pretty amazing. this thread, and a crazy-good build like this spinning out of it, is the best of what OSG is really all about 8)
in the coldest night / huddled 'round the dying embers

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Lomic Guitars » Sat Feb 26, 2022 11:09 am

dc wrote:
Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:58 am
Lomic Guitars wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:30 pm
Hello all! Long story short... I built one :)
https://www.instagram.com/p/CaYAmPnO5F1/
pretty amazing. this thread, and a crazy-good build like this spinning out of it, is the best of what OSG is really all about 8)
Thank you! And I completely agree. Honestly all credit goes to all the hard investigative work in this thread. Actually building it was the easy part.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by ZayRRow » Wed Mar 30, 2022 6:04 am

Hello everyone! This trend is soooo interesting, I love it. Btw, beautiful Jag-Stang build. I just wanted to know, what's the exact bridge pickup that Kurt used: the Seymour Duncan SH-4 JB or the Seymour Duncan 59 Custom? Because Earnie Bailey told that the bridge pickup (DiMarzio H-8) of the Jag-Stang was remplaced with a SD JB the same day as MTV Unplugged was shoot, so before Kurt actually started to play it. So what's the exact bridge pickup that Kurt used in his Jag-Stang?

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Thu Mar 31, 2022 9:37 pm

ZayRRow wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 6:04 am
Hello everyone! This trend is soooo interesting, I love it. Btw, beautiful Jag-Stang build. I just wanted to know, what's the exact bridge pickup that Kurt used: the Seymour Duncan SH-4 JB or the Seymour Duncan 59 Custom? Because Earnie Bailey told that the bridge pickup (DiMarzio H-8) of the Jag-Stang was remplaced with a SD JB the same day as MTV Unplugged was shoot, so before Kurt actually started to play it. So what's the exact bridge pickup that Kurt used in his Jag-Stang?
There is a photo posted in this thread of the blue prototype being held by Larry Brooks and it has a seymour duncan in it at the Fender custom shop. The H8 was never in the Jagstang. It was however in one of Kurt's strats that was given to Pat Smear. That strat was given a JB. Was also able to confirm that Earnie wasn't listed as part of the crew for the unplugged show.

With all of that being said, we were able to 100% debunk that claim. Essentially, the pickup that came stock in the blue prototype was a SD 59 model. As far as we can tell, the 59 was never swapped out of the guitar while Kurt owned it.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Acidhouse » Sat Apr 02, 2022 5:41 am

Glad to catch up on this awesome thread. I hadn’t checked in for a few months. This really is a wonderful detective story. Fender should have probably consulted with Acrylic and Amon for their latest JS version.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Sat Apr 02, 2022 1:31 pm

Acidhouse wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2022 5:41 am
Glad to catch up on this awesome thread. I hadn’t checked in for a few months. This really is a wonderful detective story. Fender should have probably consulted with Acrylic and Amon for their latest JS version.
It is my understanding that Fender had access to the blue prototype for their current release and they intended to replicate it. It is my understanding that something changed along the way, possibly the Cobain estate, and the current production, while yet again a different body shape all together, is practically a hybrid of blue and red. So I give them props for working with what they had to work with.

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