JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

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Amon 7.L
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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Amon 7.L » Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:12 am

AcrylicSuperman wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:31 pm

Kurt's Jaguar wasn't a V shape, but for the era we are talking about, it was a very thin c shape. His jaguar neck also had no cheeks and came right off the binding. You can see it pretty well in Hole's "Doll Parts" video. You can see the back of the neck at 2:23. Eric is also playing over the neck. The neck is in the palm of his hand and his fingers and thumbs are over the edges. Its thin.

https://youtu.be/RD9xK9smth4
Once more I find myself agreeing with you.
The depth of the shadow from the inwards of the binding and the rapid transition of the faded area as it casts towards the middle section speaks for itself.
Image
Image

@TinyEv Lovely collection, I'd loved having that fiesta compstang :?

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by TinyEv » Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:20 am

@Amon 7.L Thanks, that Mustang is a gem, it was only £370 to boot! It's super lightweight and resonant. One of those guitars that you're not intending to buy but can't pass up once you try it.
Give the anarchist a cigarette

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Amon 7.L » Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:38 am

TinyEv wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:20 am
@Amon 7.L Thanks, that Mustang is a gem, it was only £370 to boot! It's super lightweight and resonant. One of those guitars that you're not intending to buy but can't pass up once you try it.
Oh man.. You scored it big time, £370 for what I also know being kinda rare finish.. what can I say.. You didn't spend money, you gained a little treasure! :w00t:

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Rgand » Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:25 am

This is a really cool project. Have you compared your drawings to Warmoth"s Jagstang? You may get some helpful information there.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Amon 7.L » Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:50 am

Rgand wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:25 am
This is a really cool project. Have you compared your drawings to Warmoth"s Jagstang? You may get some helpful information there.
Thank you Rgand.
Yes, I've compared it at the early stages and even traced a picture of a warmoth pickguard to use it a reference but it's not of much use if you REALLY want things to be spot on.
Production JS outline against a Warmoth: Close to each others but nothing like the real deal.
Image

I'm very very very close to be satisfied with my endless revisions and I'd just need some extra details to confirm or dismiss my reverse-ingeneering.
If FenderBob manages to get his pickguard scanned I'll have one or two things I can nail on the wall as trustable.

Fellow member HNB could be our guy in this game as he probably have both production and warmoth jagstangs available in his arsenal and who could give us direct comparison pics on the actual items.

I know the body is specd as 44mm (finish included) but the most critical measurement I need is:
1) the radius of the body (most important factor for me at this stage);
2) body thickness as raw wood
3) body thickness with finish on

it might not seem important but, believe, even a SINGLE FUCKING mm displaced/skewed/offsetted/angle woteva influences the entire flow.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:59 am

Amon 7.L wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:12 am
AcrylicSuperman wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:31 pm

Kurt's Jaguar wasn't a V shape, but for the era we are talking about, it was a very thin c shape. His jaguar neck also had no cheeks and came right off the binding. You can see it pretty well in Hole's "Doll Parts" video. You can see the back of the neck at 2:23. Eric is also playing over the neck. The neck is in the palm of his hand and his fingers and thumbs are over the edges. Its thin.

https://youtu.be/RD9xK9smth4
Once more I find myself agreeing with you.
The depth of the shadow from the inwards of the binding and the rapid transition of the faded area as it casts towards the middle section speaks for itself.
Image
Image
When compared to Kurt's own notes, it makes sense. In a very simplistic point of view, imagine a hybrid body of a Jaguar and a Mustang, then take the electronics and hardware of the Mustangs he was currently using and add his Jaguar neck. The guitar would be pretty much a 50/50 split of his Jaguar and his Mustangs.

But when you look at it with a Mustang neck on it, what would have really been the point? He had just ordered 10 custom Mustangs around the same time. If he purely just wanted a reshaped Mustang, he would have asked for it then, in my opinion.
Amon 7.L wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:50 am
I know the body is specd as 44mm (finish included) but the most critical measurement I need is:
1) the radius of the body (most important factor for me at this stage);
2) body thickness as raw wood
3) body thickness with finish on

it might not seem important but, believe, even a SINGLE FUCKING mm displaced/skewed/offsetted/angle woteva influences the entire flow.
2 and 3 should be really easy. Just have to find a Jagstang with a nice paint chip in it. Even if the wood is indented, there should be an intact layer of finish around it. Measure the finish, subtract it from 44mm. Boom. Done.
Last edited by AcrylicSuperman on Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Rgand » Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:35 pm

Amon 7.L wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:50 am
Thank you Rgand.
Yes, I've compared it at the early stages and even traced a picture of a warmoth pickguard to use it a reference but it's not of much use if you REALLY want things to be spot on.
Production JS outline against a Warmoth: Close to each others but nothing like the real deal.
Image

I'm very very very close to be satisfied with my endless revisions and I'd just need some extra details to confirm or dismiss my reverse-ingeneering.
If FenderBob manages to get his pickguard scanned I'll have one or two things I can nail on the wall as trustable.

Fellow member HNB could be our guy in this game as he probably have both production and warmoth jagstangs available in his arsenal and who could give us direct comparison pics on the actual items.

I know the body is specd as 44mm (finish included) but the most critical measurement I need is:
1) the radius of the body (most important factor for me at this stage);
2) body thickness as raw wood
3) body thickness with finish on

it might not seem important but, believe, even a SINGLE FUCKING mm displaced/skewed/offsetted/angle woteva influences the entire flow.
Good that you've already seen theirs. I like the pickup cavities because they would allow some serious changes if you ever wanted a different configuration. I'm a fan of removing whatever isn't absolutely needed.

I know what you mean about a single mm making a difference. Every pattern I've made has been drawn full-size at least 4 times, usually man more, after I knew what I wanted.

This will be a spectacular build.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by supersonicjazzmaster » Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:24 am

Very interesting thread for fans of the Jagstang.
I have still two Jagstangs. A fiesta red, all original. I like it playing without amp most... very resonant guitar, very inspiring instrument.
And an early Jagstang, faded blue (nearly green). Thin neck, two singe coil pickups, old Mustang trem unit, a working horse, total different feel to the red one.
Your informations about all those Jagstang details are so great nerdy. Thank you for sharing.
It starts... when it begins.
Ralf Kilauea

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:04 am

Just wanted to let you know that I am officially sending off the letter today. I've been meaning to get it out sooner, but life has kind of had some other plans lately. We'll see what happens.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Amon 7.L » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:58 pm

Rgand wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:35 pm
Good that you've already seen theirs. I like the pickup cavities because they would allow some serious changes if you ever wanted a different configuration. I'm a fan of removing whatever isn't absolutely needed.

I know what you mean about a single mm making a difference. Every pattern I've made has been drawn full-size at least 4 times, usually man more, after I knew what I wanted.

This will be a spectacular build
Yeah, no luck thou. What puzzles me about the Warmoth JS is that their product has the improved swimming pool for every experimental mod you can think of and the much requested body contours.. and yet they STILL didn't fix that mismatching pickguard. I despise that detail with passion.

Thanks for the encouragement, it means a lot to me :)
supersonicjazzmaster wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:24 am
Very interesting thread for fans of the Jagstang.
I have still two Jagstangs. A fiesta red, all original. I like it playing without amp most... very resonant guitar, very inspiring instrument.
And an early Jagstang, faded blue (nearly green). Thin neck, two singe coil pickups, old Mustang trem unit, a working horse, total different feel to the red one.
Your informations about all those Jagstang details are so great nerdy. Thank you for sharing.
Hi and thanks to you as well for your support. I'm glad you're enjoying my nerdy madness in this project.. There will more coming, don't worry :fp:
I know it's a guitar that has never received much love for its looks but it keeps fashinating nonetheless. I mean.. it's too easy to like good looks, sometimes it gets boring and you'd find yourself liking the character more, right? :D

Being you the lucky owner of two.. (feel free to post pics of them), can I ask you to measure body thickness and radius of your axes?
AcrylicSuperman wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:04 am
Just wanted to let you know that I am officially sending off the letter today. I've been meaning to get it out sooner, but life has kind of had some other plans lately. We'll see what happens.
That's awesome, AcrylicSuperman.. Don't be hard on yourself, life always comes first, I hope everything is alright in that regard.
Each step forward is a progress.. that's all that matters.
I'll keep my finger crossed.
Btw.. check your in-box :ph34r:

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:48 am

I came across a couple photos of Kurt with the Jagstang at what I believe to be it's first public appearance. Birmingham, Alabama - December 1993

Image

I know, I know. It isn't the most clear photograph, but there was one photo that I thought was cool. I don't know if you can use this view or not to help with your thickness measurements or anything. I imagine that might be impossible. Any way, there is a shot of the back of the guitar (as much as you can expect). It isn't a shot that we typically get to see of it.

Image

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Amon 7.L » Wed May 01, 2019 2:58 am

AcrylicSuperman wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:48 am
I came across a couple photos of Kurt with the Jagstang at what I believe to be it's first public appearance. Birmingham, Alabama - December 1993

Image

I know, I know. It isn't the most clear photograph, but there was one photo that I thought was cool. I don't know if you can use this view or not to help with your thickness measurements or anything. I imagine that might be impossible. Any way, there is a shot of the back of the guitar (as much as you can expect). It isn't a shot that we typically get to see of it.

Image
Man, I never see any of these picture.. They're super cool!
Thanks for being so incredibly supportive in this process and..don't worry, it's indeed impossible to me to use it as a thickness reference but.. Well.. I did it. I finally cracked the beast. :ph34r:

Later today I'll update the thread :)

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Amon 7.L » Wed May 01, 2019 5:56 am

Amon 7.L wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 2:58 am
AcrylicSuperman wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:48 am
I came across a couple photos of Kurt with the Jagstang at what I believe to be it's first public appearance. Birmingham, Alabama - December 1993

Image

I know, I know. It isn't the most clear photograph, but there was one photo that I thought was cool. I don't know if you can use this view or not to help with your thickness measurements or anything. I imagine that might be impossible. Any way, there is a shot of the back of the guitar (as much as you can expect). It isn't a shot that we typically get to see of it.

Image
Man, I never seen any of these picture.. They're super cool!
Thanks for being so incredibly supportive in this process and..don't worry, it's indeed impossible to me to use it as a thickness reference but.. Well.. I did it. I finally cracked the beast. :ph34r:

Later today I'll update the thread :)

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Wed May 01, 2019 7:06 am

Amon 7.L wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 2:58 am
AcrylicSuperman wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:48 am
I came across a couple photos of Kurt with the Jagstang at what I believe to be it's first public appearance. Birmingham, Alabama - December 1993

Image

I know, I know. It isn't the most clear photograph, but there was one photo that I thought was cool. I don't know if you can use this view or not to help with your thickness measurements or anything. I imagine that might be impossible. Any way, there is a shot of the back of the guitar (as much as you can expect). It isn't a shot that we typically get to see of it.

Image
Man, I never see any of these picture.. They're super cool!
Thanks for being so incredibly supportive in this process and..don't worry, it's indeed impossible to me to use it as a thickness reference but.. Well.. I did it. I finally cracked the beast. :ph34r:

Later today I'll update the thread :)
Awesome! I look forward to seeing your results. :)

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Amon 7.L » Wed May 01, 2019 8:26 am

Hello and Happy May Day everyone.

So.. Moderate rock
May day, every day, my day
Could've had a heart attack, my heart
We don't know anything, my heart
We all want something fair, my heart
;D

Tune's on, thread can start.

For those who followed this project, you know on which references -or lack thereof- I've decided to replicate Cobain's Jag-stang prototype, so.. I want to state that this work is solely based on what my eyes perceived just by looking & using old pictures and what I managed to gather up throughout the interwebz: therefore I'm not claiming it's EXACTLY like the real deal, it's just as close as I can get.
You look, you judge, I'll make further tweaks.

Crucial note: pictures were most of the time altered by perspective, crazy stage light and all sort of alteration... hence, among all of my revisions, I tried to find the one who matched the highest number of samples at my disposal.
I took bits and pieces from all those mentioned revisions and found out that none of them is as close to the real thing as this one I'm about to show you.
I couldn't replicate the exact environments/angles/lights & shadows parameters, but trust me... orbiting the 3D render to every degree proved to be even closer than what I managed to photograph.
All my previous revions are kinda there, but this one is different and unique:

Amon Rev. 13

Exhibit E:
Image
Focus on the pickguard's bottom shape and the silhouette of the body all across lower horn---> bottom cutaway----> control plate. Seems to match.
This pic also is one of my best reference for the body thickness AND, if you look closely, you see ONLY 3 screws on the upper side of the pickguard.

Exhibit F:
Image
Still focus on the lower side of the guitar. A further close-up of the lower horn. Its thickness, the body radius and the control plate area. Seems to match. (Top horn seems to be off... Bear with me for a bit)

Exhibit G:
Image
General guitar outline... all seems to match..
YET, it looks like the top horn is off by a lot. Said horn has been a major PITA, as it looks different in almost every pic.
In this specific one it looks like the inner cutaway is waaaaay straighten than it actually is.
Onwards, this next one will give you an idea of how much I had to fight against lighting and bloody perspective distortion...

Exhibit H:
Image
Keep in mind it's always the same rendering, but the reference pic is from a different show. Now we're seeing the bastard -the top horn- in its true shape (both inner cutaway, outer silhouette and tip).
Do they look similar now, right? :fp: Damn perspective and lights..
Now render and actual thing look rather matching, what do you think?

Just because I can't help myself criss-crossing things to see if I'm on the right tracks and not misled... I had to do some other confrontations... hence... let's see if this horn behaves the same from another angle...
Exhibit I:
Image
Well.. kinda looks like they are still matching accordingly..
But now my eyes noticed 2 things:
1) yes, the already mentioned 3 screws in the pickguard instead of the standard 5 we have in prototype #2 and production models;
2) the edge of the pickguard looks dangerously closer to the cutaway than what I see in the render... I HAD to triple-check (x100, if you wonder how much I did it in reality) what was going on... so...

Exhibit J:
Image
Did I mention that lights/shadows/perspective can alter things dramatically? Yup, just a 1 degree angle and things morph from horse to donkey.
Enhancing the real edges out of the body's roundover against the pickguard's chamfer proves the distance is actually the same.

Exhibit K:
Image
Well... render vs Mike Mills action shot. Body thickness, roundover and horn outline... all seems to match.

I guess that's all I've got, folks... If you catch anything I might have overlooked or that is plain wrong... let me know.

Cheers
Last edited by Amon 7.L on Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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