Big Bison Baritone in Black [finished p.3]

[Rgand]

From the look of the tip of the punch and the sheet of UPVC, did you punch them with the motor on?

Yes indeed. UPV is too hard/brittle to cut with the punch by itself. Having it rotating makes it a lot easier. I know you're not supposed to use punches like that - yet it's the easiest way I found to do that so far!

Thanks, that's a good solution to cutting those out.

[ludobag1]

this one

[epizootics]

Very clean and slick Ludo, it really makes that tort guard pop out!

A shot of the pickups before they are locked in their nickel-silver shell forever:



Neck is pretty much carved - I thought a volute would add to the slightly baroque vibes:



The ride has been interestingly smooth. Knock on wood, but I haven't had any major screw-ups so far. That's unusual.
The weather turned and I haven't clear coated the body yet, but as soon as it stops raining long enough for the humidity levels to go down I'll run to the forbidden yard and spray my heart out.

In the meantime, I am giving the final touches to the blueprints for my next build...This one will be for me...There must have been twenty variations of this design but I am afraid this is the final one:

[antisymmetric]

^ Awesome! Instead of a Floyd just being banged on any random unsuspecting guitar, you go and design a guitar around it! As much as I'm kind of a Floyd sceptic, it does look like it belongs on this one.

[epizootics]

^ Awesome! Instead of a Floyd just being banged on any random unsuspecting guitar, you go and design a guitar around it! As much as I'm kind of a Floyd sceptic, it does look like it belongs on this one.

Well, I guess I'd define myself as a Floyd-sceptic too That unit has developed, uh, dodgy connotations over the years. Bar one or two I don't think any of my personal guitar heroes ever used one. However, one of my bandmates did point out that my use of the Jazzmaster trem for noise purposes was probably too much for that design. In his words - "Mate. You should get a Floyd."

Last year I visited a friend in Manchester who used to work as a guitar tech. His nephew had given him his cheap Floyd-bearing Jackson to set up. I picked it up for a laugh and ended up playing for an hour. That thing is so over the top I couldn't stop laughing all the way through. I play a lot of pretty atonal stuff and the guitar worked great for that, in spite of its Hair Metal looks.

A little while back I found a brand new Gotoh 1996T for about 50€ in the classifieds, and thought...Eh...Why the hell not. SOMEONE might have some use for it. C'mon, let's be honest. That 'someone' is sitting at my desk right now.

It's an intriguing unit. Now, in the 2020s, it looks both high-tech and really dated. I like the way all those angry-looking little bolts stick out at the back. I'm figuring that if I can replace router bearings, I should be able to set that thing up.

The one thing that is a complete no-no for me is the locking nut. It looks clunky, and I don't like the idea of drilling into the neck at its narrowest point. I have a set of vintage-style Gotoh locking tuners somewhere in a drawer and I'm thinking that as long as the strings go from the nut to the tuners in a straight line, and if I use a graphite nut, I should be fine. After all, Parker guitars don't have a locking nut. But if anyone would like to chime in, I'll be glad to hear people's opinion on that! I also plan to have an angled back headstock to eliminate the need for string trees (extra friction).

[countertext]

I’ve been wondering for a couple of years if good locking tuners have mooted the locking nut.

[HarlowTheFish]

That's a sweet floyd axe!
I will say though, having a few Floyd-style trems in my stable, if you're not gonna want the locking nut you 100% want locking tuners (at full dive it will straight up come off a split post and unwind/rewind noticeably on a non-locking post), and especially if you're not already a Floyd kinda guy either deck it to the top or have some kind of block (either wood in the back or something like a Tremol-no) to make sure you can lock it down for a setup or string change because they're a pain in the ass for that and that guitar looks too nice to ruin with a deck of cards stuck under the bridge.

[antisymmetric]

The one thing that is a complete no-no for me is the locking nut. It looks clunky, and I don't like the idea of drilling into the neck at its narrowest point.

There's still the issue of drilling into the neck, but the pics from Will's Magnatone thread might give you some inspiration/ trigger a solution(?) I took a mental note when I saw the Maganatone's somewhat prettier version of what Floyd does which is not so easy on the eye.

[antisymmetric]

^^Just thinking further on this- if you wanted to go the clamp nut route, maybe some threaded metal inset into the neck under the fingerboard to fix to with some nice machine screws... maybe incorporated into whatever truss rod engineering you're doing?
*first coffee of the day doing the talking*

[epizootics]

That's a sweet floyd axe!
I will say though, having a few Floyd-style trems in my stable, if you're not gonna want the locking nut you 100% want locking tuners (at full dive it will straight up come off a split post and unwind/rewind noticeably on a non-locking post), and especially if you're not already a Floyd kinda guy either deck it to the top or have some kind of block (either wood in the back or something like a Tremol-no) to make sure you can lock it down for a setup or string change because they're a pain in the ass for that and that guitar looks too nice to ruin with a deck of cards stuck under the bridge.

Thanks for the advice, I knew there must be one or two Floyd users in here!
I looked it up online and saw that some people used a wedge inside the spring cavity to stop the block from rotating forward while loosening the springs to the correct tension. It looks like a good way to avoid messing up the finish at the front.

Tuners will the locking kind (the top-locking type, not the ones with the little thumbwheels at the back) so they should be OK. The thing that worries me about not having a locking nut is keeping the strings in the nut when divebombing. They do seem to go pretty slack.

I was thinking I could go with a zero fret and an oversized delrin/acetal/POM nut. Some people complain about delrin nuts being too soft and dampening the sound of open strings, but most agree that it is slippery enough to keep tuning problems at bay with trem guitars. I'd leave more material at the top of the nut than I would with a regular bone nut, essentially making a deep-grooved string guide, with enough height to keep the strings in place when slackening them. Acetal should be low-friction enough to let them slide back into place once the trem arm is released. Does that sound like a good idea?

There's still the issue of drilling into the neck, but the pics from Will's Magnatone thread might give you some inspiration/ trigger a solution(?) I took a mental note when I saw the Maganatone's somewhat prettier version of what Floyd does which is not so easy on the eye.

Damn! I don't think I'd ever seen Magnatones before. Those are beautiful.
There's definitely something there. On Fender-type necks, I'd be concerned about the strings not getting enough break angle past the zero fret. I like how both refined (shiny chrome!) and savage (slots crudely filed into the end of the fretboard!) it looks.

^^Just thinking further on this- if you wanted to go the clamp nut route, maybe some threaded metal inset into the neck under the fingerboard to fix to with some nice machine screws... maybe incorporated into whatever truss rod engineering you're doing?
*first coffee of the day doing the talking*

Haha. There must be something to this too, although it is too early in France right now for my brain to come up with a practical solution.
There's a chance I'll have to get that nut attached to the neck by mechanical means anyway if I go with an acetal nut. That material is notoriously hard to glue - that is where the self-lubricating properties create problems of their own. I guess it's time to go back to the drawing board. After coffee.

[HarlowTheFish]

Thanks for the advice, I knew there must be one or two Floyd users in here!
I looked it up online and saw that some people used a wedge inside the spring cavity to stop the block from rotating forward while loosening the springs to the correct tension. It looks like a good way to avoid messing up the finish at the front.

This mostly works, it's just annoying and honestly especially for y'all who are used to offset trems, the pull-up range on a Floyd isn't that useful - on my RG Prestige with the Edge trem and my Strandberg with their headless trem (still Floyd-style, just proper tuners on the back), I can get maybe a minor third of usable range before the strings hit the fretboard or get pulled down by the pickups. The Strandberg trem is nice in that it has a couple of different settings for range and feel, so I keep mine on the tightest/stiffest setting and it won't even come up enough to do that, but on my Ibby it's just locked down with a wood screw on either side of the block -- which is a janktastic-as-all-hell setup and if I had the tools to do it I'd just glue in a properly-sized block to lock it down so it's dive-only. With how great the Mustang trem feels on my Vintera, my next trem axe (which is totally getting a build log on here hopefully soon) is gonna be a JM/Jag style with a rocking bridge. It was genuinely weird to have *all* the trem range be usable for the first couple of months, but now I pick up the Strandy and the trem feels old.
Especially if you're not a hardcore Floyd guy, I'd recommend setting it up for dive-only, because restringing is easier, setting up is easier (and the setup on these is a real bitch if you're not used to it), and with a neck shim it's actually pretty easy to float it for Strat trem-levels of pull-up if you need to (also a lot easier to recess a Floyd than to un-recess one).

Tuners will the locking kind (the top-locking type, not the ones with the little thumbwheels at the back) so they should be OK. The thing that worries me about not having a locking nut is keeping the strings in the nut when divebombing. They do seem to go pretty slack.

I was thinking I could go with a zero fret and an oversized delrin/acetal/POM nut. Some people complain about delrin nuts being too soft and dampening the sound of open strings, but most agree that it is slippery enough to keep tuning problems at bay with trem guitars. I'd leave more material at the top of the nut than I would with a regular bone nut, essentially making a deep-grooved string guide, with enough height to keep the strings in place when slackening them. Acetal should be low-friction enough to let them slide back into place once the trem arm is released. Does that sound like a good idea?

Sounds pretty good as far as tuning stability. To keep the strings in the slots, I'd say start with heavier strings (11s work okay for this), add a zero-fret and a tall nut behind it, have a headstock angle (7ish degrees works pretty well without adding a binding risk at the nut), and use a Floyd string retainer. With a setup like this you have something below the strings (zero-fret), something to the sides (nut) and something above them (retainer), which should keep them in the slots pretty well. Kiesel/Carvin did a single-locking Floyd setup for a while (and I'm pretty sure you can still get this, but they don't offer a ton of Floyds these days), but their headstock angle is more like 9ish or 10ish (my Kiesel's a headless, so I can't really measure).

Speaking of headless, that might also be a good option for something that's Floyd-feeling and won't have any issues with staying in the nut. You're in Europe, right? Technology 4 Musicians has a well-regarded headless trem out your way that's not terribly expensive compared to a good Floyd, and imagine all the cool stuff you could do when you have an extra pound of weight allowance for the headstock end because your tuners are at the bridge!

Haha. There must be something to this too, although it is too early in France right now for my brain to come up with a practical solution.
There's a chance I'll have to get that nut attached to the neck by mechanical means anyway if I go with an acetal nut. That material is notoriously hard to glue - that is where the self-lubricating properties create problems of their own. I guess it's time to go back to the drawing board. After coffee.

. . . don't glue it?
If it's just a guide, you could get away with tiny bolts or pins running like 2mm into the neck, or just the tiniest bit of adhesion to hold it in place. The nuts on my Ormsby (bone), Kiesel (Graphtech), Strandberg (Graphtech) and acoustic (bone) aren't glued in. The Strandy's got a zero-fret, but none of them are an issue, and if you put some locating pins in the nut and press it in, it should be plenty well attached for your uses. Or just go with a Graphtech nut, those are super great and my Mustang's getting one as soon as I can be bothered dealing with the finish on the sides of the fretboard.

[epizootics]

Especially if you're not a hardcore Floyd guy, I'd recommend setting it up for dive-only, because restringing is easier, setting up is easier (and the setup on these is a real bitch if you're not used to it), and with a neck shim it's actually pretty easy to float it for Strat trem-levels of pull-up if you need to (also a lot easier to recess a Floyd than to un-recess one).

Thanks for taking the time to answer my rookie Floyd questions!

I considered that option, but I think want the full range. Flutter effects sound out of tune when only going downwards, and I often find myself whacking my JM trem to a full tone up (which it doesn't appreciate all that much). I don't mind spending time on the set-up, and I was thinking of recessing the top section anyway.

Sounds pretty good as far as tuning stability. To keep the strings in the slots, I'd say start with heavier strings (11s work okay for this), add a zero-fret and a tall nut behind it, have a headstock angle (7ish degrees works pretty well without adding a binding risk at the nut), and use a Floyd string retainer. With a setup like this you have something below the strings (zero-fret), something to the sides (nut) and something above them (retainer), which should keep them in the slots pretty well. Kiesel/Carvin did a single-locking Floyd setup for a while (and I'm pretty sure you can still get this, but they don't offer a ton of Floyds these days), but their headstock angle is more like 9ish or 10ish (my Kiesel's a headless, so I can't really measure).

Would you say that the Floyd string retainer is a 100% necessary? I made CAD drawings of the headstock, and with the headstock angle combined with a tall nut, I can have the strings 4mm / 5/32" deep where they come out of the nut towards the headstock. That seems to allow for quite a bit of upwards motion when slackened.
If that's not enough, I'm thinking I can attach a thin piece of stainless steel sheet to the top of the nut. That would tie things in with Antisymmetric's Magnatone idea and keep the headstock from becoming too busy (zero nut, big nut, string retainer...).

Speaking of headless, that might also be a good option for something that's Floyd-feeling and won't have any issues with staying in the nut. You're in Europe, right? Technology 4 Musicians has a well-regarded headless trem out your way that's not terribly expensive compared to a good Floyd, and imagine all the cool stuff you could do when you have an extra pound of weight allowance for the headstock end because your tuners are at the bridge!

Cool stuff. I'd never heard of them. I am in Europe indeed! But I don't think I'm ready to go headless just now - the Floyd in itself is already a big step for a guy who still occasionally builds necks without a truss rod

. . . don't glue it?
If it's just a guide, you could get away with tiny bolts or pins running like 2mm into the neck, or just the tiniest bit of adhesion to hold it in place. The nuts on my Ormsby (bone), Kiesel (Graphtech), Strandberg (Graphtech) and acoustic (bone) aren't glued in. The Strandy's got a zero-fret, but none of them are an issue, and if you put some locating pins in the nut and press it in, it should be plenty well attached for your uses. Or just go with a Graphtech nut, those are super great and my Mustang's getting one as soon as I can be bothered dealing with the finish on the sides of the fretboard.

I have used them in the past with good results although I haven't had the chance to check out the Tusq XL material yet. But a whole 6mm-thick sheet of acetal/Delrin is pretty much the same price as a Graphtec nut, enough for dozens of nuts, and I like having the option to screw up a couple of times before I get it right If I'm going to attach a top plate to that nut using screws, I might as well have them extending all the way down into the wood and fasten everything down at once.

I'll order that sheet of Delrin and report back with my experiments!

[HarlowTheFish]

Thanks for taking the time to answer my rookie Floyd questions!

No problem man! I've lurked through a bunch of your dope-ass builds so I'm happy to help!

I considered that option, but I think want the full range. Flutter effects sound out of tune when only going downwards, and I often find myself whacking my JM trem to a full tone up (which it doesn't appreciate all that much). I don't mind spending time on the set-up, and I was thinking of recessing the top section anyway.

That's fair enough - in this case, I'd budget for a Tremol-no just because it's the easiest and un-fussiest solution to just locking it down for a setup or string change, and it gets out of the way pretty well.

Would you say that the Floyd string retainer is a 100% necessary? I made CAD drawings of the headstock, and with the headstock angle combined with a tall nut, I can have the strings 4mm / 5/32" deep where they come out of the nut towards the headstock. That seems to allow for quite a bit of upwards motion when slackened.
If that's not enough, I'm thinking I can attach a thin piece of stainless steel sheet to the top of the nut. That would tie things in with Antisymmetric's Magnatone idea and keep the headstock from becoming too busy (zero nut, big nut, string retainer...).

I mean, you're basically making your own string retainer at that point. I like the Floyd ones because they're pretty tiny, and if you're gonna go with a tall nut, you can just use that as your top plate. My thinking r.e. this is that on my Strandberg, diving all the way down (and this has less range than a proper Floyd when set up like I have mine) would 100% pop the strings out of the nut if the locking headpiece wasn't just behind it. There's some friction issues as far as having slots that are too deep -- I've had a couple of guitars that wouldn't stay in tune until I shaved the nut down to have half the string over the top of the nut and a dog of a Gibson that would bind on the sides until I did this, though to be fair it wouldn't stay in tune even after fixing the nut. I don't know how fancy you wanna get, but if you're doing a zero-fret, you could make a non-locking locking through-nut of sorts, where there's a little retainery bit at the front to line the strings up, but then a few holes behind it that would stop the strings from popping out -- like if you put a washer under the pads on a locking nut, so the strings will still run through but can't come out the top. I'd be worried with a sheet of metal giving you excess friction and stress on the strings, whereas just a chunk of delrin is less problematic on both counts, and while shaping a nut like this would be a pain in the ass, it should* be a bit more problem-free.

in theory, but you know what Einstein thinks of this

Cool stuff. I'd never heard of them. I am in Europe indeed! But I don't think I'm ready to go headless just now - the Floyd in itself is already a big step for a guy who still occasionally builds necks without a truss rod

. . . headless, truss rod-less, wireframe body with stretched canvas over the top?

I have used them in the past with good results although I haven't had the chance to check out the Tusq XL material yet. But a whole 6mm-thick sheet of acetal/Delrin is pretty much the same price as a Graphtec nut, enough for dozens of nuts, and I like having the option to screw up a couple of times before I get it right If I'm going to attach a top plate to that nut using screws, I might as well have them extending all the way down into the wood and fasten everything down at once.

I'll order that sheet of Delrin and report back with my experiments!

Okay this French engineering is going a bit too far man, I know y'all won't follow the no painting signs but come on

Just keep in mind that any contact points for the string are potential weak spots, both for tuning (in terms of friction) and for breakage (with binding or stress). Compared to a Jazzmaster trem, a Floyd is a lot rougher on the strings because the motion is very sudden and drastic, so while a crappy nut or tuners can be a tuning issue with an offset, it'll straight up snap strings on a Floyd. The string locks at the saddle put them at a 90 degree angle, which adds stress, locking tuners are necessary, but unless they're very good (I like Gotoh, Hipshot, and Sperzel, in that order, from all the ones I've tried -- Schaller ones are Fender ones are and Klusons are ) they can also introduce stress at the headstock end. You need to be very conscientious of what you're doing with the nut to keep it as stress-free and friction-free as you can.

[antisymmetric]

Damn! I don't think I'd ever seen Magnatones before. Those are beautiful.
There's definitely something there. On Fender-type necks, I'd be concerned about the strings not getting enough break angle past the zero fret.

If I understand you correctly (no recent coffee in my system, so it's doubtful), you're considering a string clamp of sorts behind a zero fret(?) Re the break angle over the zero fret, that's something I had to think about when doing my Dano from hell project, and I found a page on the Fylde Guitars site that made sense to me. Most of the info there wouldn't apply to a Floyd-equipped guitar, but the bit about emulating the break angle that finger pressure behind any other fret would provide helped me to actually get what I was trying to do.
Making your own nut, with or without the retainer plate will be cool, for one thing you can get exactly the string spacing you want, something I couldn't do with the Floyd-equipped guitar I owned. I also didn't like the look of that clampy thing or it's feel against my hand (it was on a Valley Arts Standard Pro- a genuine early pre-Samick model that I found in a thrift store for silly cheap. It had all the expected gear- Floyd, HSS EMGs etc- beautifully built, I could admire it but not like it). Your setup will be prettier and more tactile.

[epizootics]

That's fair enough - in this case, I'd budget for a Tremol-no just because it's the easiest and un-fussiest solution to just locking it down for a setup or string change, and it gets out of the way pretty well.

Point taken. I had a look at Youtube and it seems to be a sound piece of engineering. I see them popping up on the French version of Craigslist all the time, I'll probably get one next time one floats by.

I mean, you're basically making your own string retainer at that point. I like the Floyd ones because they're pretty tiny, and if you're gonna go with a tall nut, you can just use that as your top plate. My thinking r.e. this is that on my Strandberg, diving all the way down (and this has less range than a proper Floyd when set up like I have mine) would 100% pop the strings out of the nut if the locking headpiece wasn't just behind it. There's some friction issues as far as having slots that are too deep -- I've had a couple of guitars that wouldn't stay in tune until I shaved the nut down to have half the string over the top of the nut and a dog of a Gibson that would bind on the sides until I did this, though to be fair it wouldn't stay in tune even after fixing the nut. I don't know how fancy you wanna get, but if you're doing a zero-fret, you could make a non-locking locking through-nut of sorts, where there's a little retainery bit at the front to line the strings up, but then a few holes behind it that would stop the strings from popping out -- like if you put a washer under the pads on a locking nut, so the strings will still run through but can't come out the top. I'd be worried with a sheet of metal giving you excess friction and stress on the strings, whereas just a chunk of delrin is less problematic on both counts, and while shaping a nut like this would be a pain in the ass, it should* be a bit more problem-free.

in theory, but you know what Einstein thinks of this

That bit of sheet metal would not be in constant contact with the strings - it would only be there as a 'roof' over the nut slots. The top of the slots would have to be an exaggerated V-shape (with a U-shape at the bottom) since the nut files taper up inwards. Once the string tension increases again after a divebomb, the sides of the slots should gently guide the strings down towards the bottom. Acetal should be low-friction enough to allow for that. But we'll see how it goes in practice I ordered the copolymer-type (POM-C) which is both softer and more slippery than the homopolymer variation (POM-H, what is sold by DuPont under the name 'Delrin', and usually what you see on Gretsch guitars as a nut material). I don't think it would be suitable as a straight-up nut (too much dampening) but as a high-slip string guide, it should give better performances than POM-H.

My layout has an extra 5 or 6mm of fretboard material past the zero fret, that I'll file at an angle to get clearance for the strings. The bottom of the nut slots should be a hair under the line that goes from the top of the fret down to the tuners, to keep the nut a strictly lateral guiding apparatus, with the plate on top there to make sure no one escapes to the top of the building.

It all makes sense in my head but that part of my body has been proven wrong before

. . . headless, truss rod-less, wireframe body with stretched canvas over the top?

Yup. I still need a few years but this one is in the works too

Okay this French engineering is going a bit too far man, I know y'all won't follow the no painting signs but come on

Just keep in mind that any contact points for the string are potential weak spots, both for tuning (in terms of friction) and for breakage (with binding or stress). Compared to a Jazzmaster trem, a Floyd is a lot rougher on the strings because the motion is very sudden and drastic, so while a crappy nut or tuners can be a tuning issue with an offset, it'll straight up snap strings on a Floyd. The string locks at the saddle put them at a 90 degree angle, which adds stress, locking tuners are necessary, but unless they're very good (I like Gotoh, Hipshot, and Sperzel, in that order, from all the ones I've tried -- Schaller ones are Fender ones are and Klusons are ) they can also introduce stress at the headstock end. You need to be very conscientious of what you're doing with the nut to keep it as stress-free and friction-free as you can.

I know, I feel like I should apologize for my unabashed Froggy obsessional tendency to build everything myself. We simply can't do anything like everybody else. Musta started when we beheaded our king a while back. Hum.

It must be a family thing. When I was seriously getting into fly tying when I was 8 or 9, I asked my dad if he could buy me a proper vise. 'Nonsense', he said, 'we'll build you one of these'. And we did. That went for everything in the household. Houses, vehicles (our campervan was an ancient Mercedes flat deck truck with a caravan bolted to the top, complete with a sealed, hand-cut opening between the cab and the caravan), haircuts, etc. That stuff must have translated into my builds. 'Naah, I'll make my own'. Strangely enough, my builds seem to take a bit longer than they should

To go back to the guitar - tuners are Gotohs. I've given up on using anything cheaper than that and I haven't had one bad batch from them yet.

But I haven't even clear coated that Bison yet - that's the plan for today and tomorrow since the weather forecast seems a bit more rattle-can friendly!