P90 between two humbuckers?

[Grizzlewulf]

Note: If you've seen my other thread about this guitar, ignore that dumb idea lol.

So I've got this Affinity Series Jazzmaster I'm tinkering with:



Since it's got that swimming pool route behind the pickguard, I'm thinking of dropping in a middle pickup. Considering doing a P-90.

I don't recall ever seeing this kinda HSH configuration with a P90 in the middle....anyone seen it? Thoughts on the sound it could get?

My hope is when combined with the bridge HB it would add some muscle and low-mid kick, and when combined with the neck it would brighten and clarify the treble. And then on its own, you'd just get that classic, aggressive P90 midrange sound. But, I'd love to hear input on it, especially before I go cutting a P-90 sized hole in my pickguard.

Also open to suggestions on budget-friendly P90 models, or other ideas to achieve what I'm going for. I'm actually pretty happy with the stock HB's, not intending to replace them just yet, just want to add more to the palate.

[Grizzlewulf]

I could also use ideas on how to install switches to function a middle pickup, hopefully without having to route out new cavities from the wood. Right now I'm leaning toward adding a mini toggle to turn the P90 off and on, but then I'm not sure how I Could do P90 only mode, unless I had the P90 bypass the pots so I Could turn down the volume on the HB's....seems a little goofy, but I'd get access to all 7 combinations that way.

Could I turn that 3 way toggle hole into a 5 way selector, or would I have to order a custom pickguard for that?

[Bradley-Jazz]

Could I turn that 3 way toggle hole into a 5 way selector, or would I have to order a custom pickguard for that?

I doubt you could cut it for a 5way without it being obvious that it used to have a toggle there.

There are these six way toggles though....

https://www.freewayswitch.com/products/

And schematics that might do what you want. https://www.freewayswitch.com/schematics-toggle/

[Grizzlewulf]

Could I turn that 3 way toggle hole into a 5 way selector, or would I have to order a custom pickguard for that?

I doubt you could cut it for a 5way without it being obvious that it used to have a toggle there.

There are these six way toggles though....

https://www.freewayswitch.com/products/

And schematics that might do what you want. https://www.freewayswitch.com/schematics-toggle/

Whoa! That's far out. Thanks for the tip, this might be the way I go

[Embenny]

My hope is when combined with the bridge HB it would add some muscle and low-mid kick, and when combined with the neck it would brighten and clarify the treble. And then on its own, you'd just get that classic, aggressive P90 midrange sound. But, I'd love to hear input on it, especially before I go cutting a P-90 sized hole in my pickguard.

Adding a middle pickup in parallel with a bridge pickup would never add "muscle" or "low-mid kick", it'll drop the output slightly and add a midrange scoop. That's just what two nearby pickups sound like together in parallel.

Here is a triple-PAF strat in position two. You can hear it still does the "quack" thing. They then go into the bridge by itself. You can hear that it very specifically reduces "muscle and low-mid kick" when you add the middle pickup.

As for the neck and middle, nothing earthshaking there, either. It sounds like the typical quacking strat position 4, but overall thicker (since it's PAFs and not strat pickups). I don't know if you call that "brightening and clarifying the treble", it's a mid-scoop effect from phase cancellation like any parallel pickup combination.

If you want to increase output and mids by adding the middle pickup, you can dial that in with a "series blender" type wiring.

[Grizzlewulf]

That's good info about how those sounds work on the in between settings wired in series. Getting some quack tones could be a nice addition, too, I'm mostly interested in just getting more sound options to play with. That said, can you think of any reason a P90 in the middle might be a good or bad idea as opposed to a single coil or humbucker? I'm wondering why it's not something I never seen to find in guitars, unless it's just three P90's.

[Embenny]

Well, adding a single coil into an HH guitar means every single switch position involving the middle pickup will hum, unless you use something like a superswitch to automatically split the humbuckers in the 2&4 positions. I imagine that's one of the reasons.

Also, Gibson players tend not to be as into thinner/quacky tones. The few models that offer them are generally toward the bottom of Gibson's all-time popularity list (melody makers, triple-pickup Les Paul's/ SGs/Firebirds, vari-tone models, the L6s, Victory MVs, Flying V2, etc). They've always existed and had their fans, they're just consistently less popular.

Lastly, if you're trying to make a guitar "quack", the most helpful thing is to have a low output middle pickup. P90s are pretty high output, so the players that value that sort of tone probably appreciate Fender style strat pickups for that reason. Higher output middle pickups make for less quack, but don't eliminate it, as you can hear in that demo I linked earlier.

[HarlowTheFish]

You'll probably wanna go with a noiseless P90 if you do this to avoid noise. As far as wiring, if you're adding it in parallel then you're gonna lose mids and get a snappier, kinda stringy tone when you blend in the middle pickup - kinda like Strat 2/4, but a bit less wiry. I'd take a look at the schematic thread on here, somebody just posted one to add an extra pickup in series, so you could have your toggle for N/N+B/B, then either a mini-toggle or some kind of push-pull to add the middle pickup in series, which would give you some extra kick both in output and in EQ (a bit more low-mid, a bit less treble). Not 100% what you're looking for, but if you had a 4P3T switch (like the fancy Dimarzio toggle), you might be able to wire the neck and bridge pickup outputs separately so if you add the middle pickup, it's in series with the bridge and in parallel with the neck.

Man these ideas all sound great but that's a lot of complicated, impractical, and really interesting stuff
Hope you can figure out a setup that works for you.

[Grizzlewulf]

You'll probably wanna go with a noiseless P90 if you do this to avoid noise. As far as wiring, if you're adding it in parallel then you're gonna lose mids and get a snappier, kinda stringy tone when you blend in the middle pickup - kinda like Strat 2/4, but a bit less wiry. I'd take a look at the schematic thread on here, somebody just posted one to add an extra pickup in series, so you could have your toggle for N/N+B/B, then either a mini-toggle or some kind of push-pull to add the middle pickup in series, which would give you some extra kick both in output and in EQ (a bit more low-mid, a bit less treble). Not 100% what you're looking for, but if you had a 4P3T switch (like the fancy Dimarzio toggle), you might be able to wire the neck and bridge pickup outputs separately so if you add the middle pickup, it's in series with the bridge and in parallel with the neck.

Man these ideas all sound great but that's a lot of complicated, impractical, and really interesting stuff
Hope you can figure out a setup that works for you.

The way I'm thinking of doing it: Mid pickup goes to an on/off toggle, then that goes straight to the output jack. I wouldn't get to mess around with the tone or volume on it, but I'm a caveman who normally leaves those dimed, anyway. Upside is, if I want to play just the middle, I can roll back the volume to kill the N&B. And maybe when they're played together, I can do interesting things changing the volumes and tones of the neck and bridge.

Would that be a way to wire it in series, so it's more of a mid boost tone shaper and less of a strat-type quack? Is it dumb to bypass the pots altogether like that? Like, would it make the signal from the middle pickup too hot?

[HarlowTheFish]

The way I'm thinking of doing it: Mid pickup goes to an on/off toggle, then that goes straight to the output jack. I wouldn't get to mess around with the tone or volume on it, but I'm a caveman who normally leaves those dimed, anyway. Upside is, if I want to play just the middle, I can roll back the volume to kill the N&B. And maybe when they're played together, I can do interesting things changing the volumes and tones of the neck and bridge.

Would that be a way to wire it in series, so it's more of a mid boost tone shaper and less of a strat-type quack? Is it dumb to bypass the pots altogether like that? Like, would it make the signal from the middle pickup too hot?

The wiring I saw on the schematics thread is basically this:
Neck and bridge to the toggle
Toggle to vol/tone
pots to jack

But instead of grounding N+B directly, they run to a switch that can either connect them to the middle pickup in series (because now the ground is the middle pickup ground, with the hot from that running to the N+B ground). This means you still have your regular volume and tone controls, and the middle pickup is only connected to the switch output, so you'll still only get M+ either neck or bridge depending on your toggle position.

It goes a bit over my head, but it's a really cool wiring and if I can get a custom plate and a good enough superswitch, I might do something similar for my upcoming Mustang build (JM pickup N+B with maybe a Strat pickup in the middle).

[jvin248]

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I've considered a similar build, although I'd bias the P90 so it's up tight against the bridge pickup.... more like an H-PH

A P90 closer to the bridge will give you a Les Paul Junior type of guitar tone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSUjR5PZdlA

Use a stacked tone pot where you have the P90 wired so you turn it from off to full on with output parallel to the regular output at the stock volume pot lug connected to the jack. Then you can add a little P90 girth to any of the other pickup options or if you turn off the stock pickup volume and turn up the P90 volume you have a full P90 Junior. A P90 is like a bar brawl any night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt_8aDOJvtM

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[Grizzlewulf]

The way I'm thinking of doing it: Mid pickup goes to an on/off toggle, then that goes straight to the output jack. I wouldn't get to mess around with the tone or volume on it, but I'm a caveman who normally leaves those dimed, anyway. Upside is, if I want to play just the middle, I can roll back the volume to kill the N&B. And maybe when they're played together, I can do interesting things changing the volumes and tones of the neck and bridge.

Would that be a way to wire it in series, so it's more of a mid boost tone shaper and less of a strat-type quack? Is it dumb to bypass the pots altogether like that? Like, would it make the signal from the middle pickup too hot?

The wiring I saw on the schematics thread is basically this:
Neck and bridge to the toggle
Toggle to vol/tone
pots to jack

But instead of grounding N+B directly, they run to a switch that can either connect them to the middle pickup in series (because now the ground is the middle pickup ground, with the hot from that running to the N+B ground). This means you still have your regular volume and tone controls, and the middle pickup is only connected to the switch output, so you'll still only get M+ either neck or bridge depending on your toggle position.

It goes a bit over my head, but it's a really cool wiring and if I can get a custom plate and a good enough superswitch, I might do something similar for my upcoming Mustang build (JM pickup N+B with maybe a Strat pickup in the middle).

It'd be nice to switch back and forth from series to parallel but I don't think I've got a place to add the blend pot. Can a push pull pot do it?

[HarlowTheFish]

It'd be nice to switch back and forth from series to parallel but I don't think I've got a place to add the blend pot. Can a push pull pot do it?

Should work ok, I think. The original wiring was for a mini toggle IIRC (so you can switch the pickup on or off) which you could just use on a push-pull (same switching, pretty much, just on a pot instead of a separate toggle). You could also go for a stacked pot as suggested above to blend the series or parallel (either or, you can't really have both) P90 in, but I'm not 100% sure how well that would work - you might have some luck asking in the schematics thread or taking a look through it to see if there's anything there that will work well for you.

[Grizzlewulf]

.

I've considered a similar build, although I'd bias the P90 so it's up tight against the bridge pickup.... more like an H-PH

A P90 closer to the bridge will give you a Les Paul Junior type of guitar tone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSUjR5PZdlA

Use a stacked tone pot where you have the P90 wired so you turn it from off to full on with output parallel to the regular output at the stock volume pot lug connected to the jack. Then you can add a little P90 girth to any of the other pickup options or if you turn off the stock pickup volume and turn up the P90 volume you have a full P90 Junior. A P90 is like a bar brawl any night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt_8aDOJvtM

.

Yeah, this is pretty close to what I was thinking! I was gonna use a mini-toggle to turn the P90 off and on, but a stacked tone pot might save me the trouble of finding a spot for the toggle. It's nice to have some confirmation that it can shape my tone similar to what I was envisioning. Good tip on getting it as close to the bridge as possible, might retain some of that bridge tone snarl.

[hillerheilman]

Since it's got that swimming pool route behind the pickguard, I'm thinking of dropping in a middle pickup. Considering doing a P-90.

I don't recall ever seeing this kinda HSH configuration with a P90 in the middle....anyone seen it? Thoughts on the sound it could get?

The first electric I built was two paf sized wide ranges with a p90 in between.



I really liked it, but it admittedly limits the places you’re able to pick. If you’re not somebody who picks and strums close to the neck like me I wouldn’t do it. It had to be set pretty high to sound good so it was like having a deck of playing cards right where most people would strum. That being said though, once it was set right it sounded pretty dang good. An interesting sound very reminiscent of strat in between sounds but with their own thicker, sparkly flavor. Unfortunately with the way it was wired it didn’t have as much adjustment capability as I would like. Without being able to adjust both pickups at once the out of phase neck +middle sounds weren’t really satisfying me.

If I were doing it again, I’d try to find a pickup I could set lower, and make sure your wiring has as much adjustment capability as possible.
Definitely an interesting combo, and entirely worth the experiment.