Eastman T186MX

[Maggieo]

See, here's the thing- a new ES-335 costs between $3K-$6K. And Eastman, which, I can tell you from owning one, is just as good in every metric, but sells new around $1200-$1500 dollars. With a Gibson you're paying the "veblen good" tax.

For forty years, I wanted a Leica, but made do with other cameras, that, to be honest, were just as good, and sometimes better. Same goes for Eastman. Not everyone can afford an ES-335, but you can get a handmade guitars that covers all the bases for a third of what Gibson wants for their veblen goods.

(This thread reminds me of people giving John Scofield a load of shit for playing a Japanese Ibanez.)

[Larry Mal]

See, here's the thing- a new ES-335 costs between $3K-$6K. And Eastman, which, I can tell you from owning one, is just as good in every metric, but sells new around $1200-$1500 dollars. With a Gibson you're paying the "veblen good" tax.

Nope. No truth to that.

Now, if both of those things were made by the same people making the same wages, then sure, that would be the case. But it isn't.

According to this the average manufacturing costs per hour in China comes out to being $6.50.

That same article tells us that "...While hourly wages in Vietnam were less than three U.S. dollars in 2018, hourly wages in the U.S. manufacturing sector hovered around 27 U.S. dollars in 2018."

Now, we don't know exactly what Gibson is paying to have the guitars made compared with Eastman, but if it is a roughly analogous situation, which it probably is, then if anything Gibson is making a lot less in profit per guitar than Eastman is.

I know that you are not naive enough to think that labor costs don't have anything to do with the price of the guitar.

It is quite likely that Eastman makes more in profit on those guitars, which is shared amongst the top people in that company, even while they undercut American labor with knockoff designs because no one would ever want their own.

And this is what you support- you call this some kind of luxury tax? The wages your own fellow citizens get paid is a luxury tax? If the Gibson CEO could make those people work for $6.50 an hour, would that make you like Gibson guitars better since they now cost the same as Eastmans? What if they could be compelled to work for $4 an hour? Is that better?

I am reading here that the average salary at Gibson Guitars is $53,000 dollars. That's a pretty solid wage, I'd say, certainly something that can put someone into the middle class of American life. But I guess that's too much- a "Veblen tax" of some kind because you can pay a person in China a quarter of that and help a Chinese family attain their dream of middle class life while the dreams of your own citizens erode.

"But I can't afford all the guitars I want if I buy American," you'll tell me.

You bet you can't.

That's because in real dollars, Americans aren't earning any more than they were when Jimmy Carter was president.

This is also not coincidentally when American decline in being a manufacturing leader began. The wages of Americans has been stagnant for decades- Americans can't afford to purchase things made by Americans any more. We are totally dependent on Chinese manufacturing to support our lifestyles because we haven't had a wage increase in real dollars in 50 years, because we let the good jobs that didn't require college degrees go to... China.

The people of China, though, are earning a lot more than they were since that time.

And not coincidentally, they have been moving towards becoming a manufacturing powerhouse during that time. Working like demons to get all the manufacturing that they can get. I can only tell you again, if manufacturing wasn't important then nations wouldn't fight so hard to get it.

Everything is connected, so just see the connection. Don't pretend it's something it's not.

[Maggieo]

Larry, your entire post is moot, as you have no idea what Eastman pays its luthiers, or what the company's pay/profit/cost system is.

You are generalizing at a level that is close, but not there, to racism.

Leicas are made in Germany, Canons in Japan and other countries. Leicas cost considerably more, but both are just digital cameras, and the pay gap between Japan and Germany is wide as well. Leica, like Gibson has a "mystique" around it. The Red Dot is the "Open Book" headstock that people want. It's a statue symbol. If you're buying because you need that status symbol, it's a veblen good. That's just a fact.

So, which one is evil, or are you just being an American chauvinist?

This is also not coincidentally when American decline in being a manufacturing leader began. The wages of Americans has been stagnant for decades- Americans can't afford to purchase things made by Americans any more. We are totally dependent on Chinese manufacturing to support our lifestyles because we haven't had a wage increase in real dollars in 50 years, because we let the good jobs that didn't require college degrees go to... China.

And, I assume, as any rational person would, by we, you mean the oligarchs that run the USA for their own profit.

[Maggieo]

OK, Larry- here's one for you- I could buy an Epiphone Casino, a Gibson 339, or an Eastman T64v. The price difference between the three, starting with the Casino, is $1000.00US. The Epiphone is made in China, the Eastman is handmade in China, and the Gibson is a production guitar made in the USA (often with sketchy Q/A).

You know which one I bought.