The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

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Larry Mal
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by Larry Mal » Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:29 pm

I hate to tell you this, but even if you think, "Shit, Gibsons are way too expensive, I can get almost all the same quality for less with an Epiphone,", well, that's still marketing at work.

You don't escape marketing.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by sal paradise » Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:44 am

I feel you.

I have an early 70s Antoria Les Paul. I love everything about it- the shape, the soft PAF sounds, the thin neck. Yet I still want a Gibson more than anything. I bought an LP studio which played ok, but the pickups were like mud. Sold it, kept playing the Antoria. But I still dream of getting a real vintage LP Custom.

Glad to know I’m not the only one ☺️
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by seenoevil II » Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:51 am

Larry Mal wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:29 pm
I hate to tell you this, but even if you think, "Shit, Gibsons are way too expensive, I can get almost all the same quality for less with an Epiphone,", well, that's still marketing at work.

You don't escape marketing.
I think you rather enjoy telling me this.

Still. It's an interesting status quo they've got going over there. The Epiphones help sell Gibsons and the Gibsons help sell Epiphones.

One does get tired of the all the manipulation involved. It makes you yearn for some non existant idealized past where the prices were honest and the quality of the product was all the advertising it needs and a nickle bought you a pop and a burger and the evening paper.

I'm getting on now, so I don't think I'll ever own one whilst still pursuing music in earnest. And that's maybe a frustrating aspect of Gibson's approach to marketing and pricing. They've got this very "scooped" lay out (at least with es models). There's epiphone for everyone except professional musicians and professional not musicians. Where Fender has a bewildering amount of price tiers, the upshot is that more or less all of Fender's models are available at that $1000-15000 "prosumer" level where most serious-though-not-lucrative musicians dwell. Of course, they're also inflating so it's just tough all around.

But to quote Marge Simpson, I just think they're neat. The thing itself. It's just so aesthetically perfect. And the fact that there's one protypical version from which all other iterations are deviations means I'll always want that Gibson version.

It makes me think about something J Mascis said about how he's only ever wanted a 50s strat. Even after all these years and becoming so successful. At every turn, even though he had more and more money to spend they were always still too expensive. The man now synonymous with one model, got that way while wanting another model.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by Embenny » Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:53 am

J has a '59 strat. He also has a 50's telecaster, esquire, and a half-dozen 50's Gibsons. He's not chasing some dream that's out of reach for him.

The idea that you can't be a professional musician and play an Epiphone or Squier is also nonsense. One of my earliest guitar teachers was a killer jazz fusion guitarist, and a totally-stock Squier strat was literally his only guitar when I met him. He recorded his first studio/label-backed album with that guitar.

If it holds tune and intonates properly, it's a guitar fit for earning income on. There's no such thing as a "professional" instrument. If you think there is, that's another marketing success.

If anything, I'd argue that a "beginner" guitar has more stringent requirements for playability and reliability, since they don't know how to tweak action, diagnose electronic issues, or sometimes how to even properly tune the thing. They need the lowest possible action in order to remove barriers to learning, whereas professionals sometimes prefer higher action as a matter of taste.

Ultimately, any playable guitar is a professional instrument if someone's willing to pay you for playing it.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by Larry Mal » Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:15 am

seenoevil II wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:51 am


I'm getting on now, so I don't think I'll ever own one whilst still pursuing music in earnest. And that's maybe a frustrating aspect of Gibson's approach to marketing and pricing. They've got this very "scooped" lay out (at least with es models). There's epiphone for everyone except professional musicians and professional not musicians. Where Fender has a bewildering amount of price tiers, the upshot is that more or less all of Fender's models are available at that $1000-15000 "prosumer" level where most serious-though-not-lucrative musicians dwell. Of course, they're also inflating so it's just tough all around.
Well, as guitarists, we are lucky that we have the marketing strata that we do, honestly. Other instruments aren't as popular, so you don't always get all the choices that you get with guitar in between the professional grade instruments and the entry level stuff.

The banjo, for instance... you have these cheap entry level things and then when you want a "real" banjo, you are all of the sudden talking real money. The fact that you can wonder about whether or not your $600 Epiphone version of a $2500 Gibson is good enough says not only a lot about marketing but also a lot about what the market itself actually is, and a lot of instruments don't have the market to support that kind of marketing... if you want a pro grade instrument, you are spending thousands and thousands of dollars at best.

Now, I should mention that some folks might think that there are middle tiers with the banjo, I should mention that I don't consider Chinese made banjos at all. The banjo is a hallmark of American culture, and I would never, ever buy a knockoff made in some Chinese sweatshop. But I do see them on the wall, Gold Tone and shit like that... none of it really looks like a pro grade banjo to me, either. To make a banjo sound good takes some work.
seenoevil II wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:51 am

But to quote Marge Simpson, I just think they're neat. The thing itself. It's just so aesthetically perfect. And the fact that there's one protypical version from which all other iterations are deviations means I'll always want that Gibson version.
I mean, we've gone over this, but the Gibson ES-335 is the best ES-335 that Gibson can (or will) make. The Epiphone versions aren't. That's all there is to it... it's not just marketing, although of course marketing is present also, like it always is. Whether you consider the things that Gibson does differently on the Gibson models to be worth the added expense over the Epiphones to be worth it, that's entirely up to you. I think that the value is there, you or anyone else might feel differently.

And that's fine... when we consider the opinion of the market itself, though, it seems clear that both of those versions are profitable. I would guess that Epiphone makes more money than Gibson does at this point. The Ford Focus and the F-150 are the moneymakers over there... not whatever tricked out Mustang that they write about in those glossy magazines at the drug store.

So the market is very clear... the Epiphone and Gibson versions of these guitars are both exactly what they need to be, if they weren't, they wouldn't continue to be made. A lot of guitar companies have failed, and even more guitar models. The market's determination is not something that can be appealed, and the market is pretty clear that the Gibson ES-335 as well as the Epiphone versions are good enough value.

In the end, though, you aren't a guitar market, you are just a guy who wants a guitar. Is it worth it to you? Only you can decide that.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by Larry Mal » Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:19 am

mbene085 wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:53 am


If anything, I'd argue that a "beginner" guitar has more stringent requirements for playability and reliability, since they don't know how to tweak action, diagnose electronic issues, or sometimes how to even properly tune the thing. They need the lowest possible action in order to remove barriers to learning, whereas professionals sometimes prefer higher action as a matter of taste.

Ultimately, any playable guitar is a professional instrument if someone's willing to pay you for playing it.
Well, but that's the thing, though. What profession are we discussing? If you are an electric guitar player, then anything goes. I would bet that the bulk of guitar players out there either don't get paid because they play in church, or are loss leaders in bar environments where they simply supplement the sales of alcohol.

But let's talk about classical music, there is certainly a grade of professional level instrument there. If you show up to audition for an orchestra and you have a three hundred dollar Chinese violin, you are not getting that job.

I can think of a few other examples... if you want to do studio work as a bassist, for example, you should really have a Fender Precision bass on hand. You really don't want to have to explain how your bass is just as good as what they are used to.

If it's people playing their own music, sure, any guitar can work. If you are paying to see the person, sure, anything goes.

But if there is an actual hiring process then the concept of a professional grade instrument does come into play.

To make this all about J Mascis, well, J gets to show up with whatever guitar he wants because you are paying to see J perform that song you like. You only care about whether or not whatever the equipment is good enough for you to enjoy the performance.

But if you are a guy that J is hiring to play in his band? I bet you are going to be playing what J wants you to play. If you don't have it, or won't get it, you won't get that job.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by Embenny » Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:51 am

I was talking electric guitars, in reference to the comment, "There's epiphone for everyone except professional musicians."

For classical guitar, it's about tone but also volume and projection. A handmade nomex sandwich double top guitar will let you fill a concert hall, and a plywood Cort will not. No such relationship between construction method and suitability for live performance exists for electric guitars. A classical guitar is both the guitar and amp.

The Telecaster was itself a refutation of Gibson's idea that an electric guitar needed to be an acoustic guitar too. A chunk of wood with pickups and a playable neck - that's all you need, and Epiphone will do that just fine. The Gibson hollow and semihollow guitars are beautiful instruments and I don't deny that there's value to building something that vibrates like it's alive. I'm just saying that that isn't a prerequisite for "professional" use, i.e. being paid money for your performance.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by seenoevil II » Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:17 pm

Gibson is obviously chugging along just fine with their very-high/very-low teir system. However, I'd say that there's more than one way to skin a cat.

I personally think that with the ES line in particular, the current Gibson model is priced a little high at 3K and that there's a very juicey market segment sitting untapped at around the 1500-2000 mark. They make every other iconic model in that price range.

Frankly, I think the 335 style guitar is underrepresented amongst current notable musicians because the Gibson is priced so high and the epiphone carries a strong amateur connotation. This also helps explain the bizarre popularity of Epiphone Sheratons. It's an Epiphone priced 335 shape, but with a little extra something so you're not playing what's thought of as a teenager's guitar.

The 335 is one of the most iconic designs out there... like literally, it's the icon for Apple GarageBand. I think by gaurding the walls of their prestige models, they're keeping out potential customers and worse, the free advertising of famous musicians.

In short, the ES would be a much more popular guitar if there was a Gibson version at a price point that more musicians could afford.

I know there's the studio, but honestly, if you're going to pay 2600 for a guitar, why not pay 400 more for them to finish polishing it. It's not really good value for money. It's like you came up a touch short on your BMW, so they left it with only primer.

And back to psychology, a $3,000 price tag might be too high for some musicians in ways beyond finance. There might be a perception or more that pulls musicians away from playing such expensive gear. Especially with electric guitar, and especially where "popular" guitar music sits culturally. Guitarists in 2021 aren't trying to flex their wealth with their great. They're trying to project their good taste, thrift and savvy. The guitar that gets you brownie points now isn't a PRS or flamed LP, it's a peavey T-60 you found at Goodwill for 80 bucks. A $3,000 price tag might be a cultural deterent in and of it seft.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by Larry Mal » Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:59 pm

seenoevil II wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:17 pm


In short, the ES would be a much more popular guitar if there was a Gibson version at a price point that more musicians could afford.

I know there's the studio, but honestly, if you're going to pay 2600 for a guitar, why not pay 400 more for them to finish polishing it. It's not really good value for money. It's like you came up a touch short on your BMW, so they left it with only primer.
I think you're thinking of the ES-335 Satin, which is $2600... nice looking guitar. I actually almost bought one a few years ago around Christmas, Chicago Music Exchange was blowing them out at like $2k. You used to be able to find cool Gibson Christmas stuff like that, I wish they were still the fun company they were under the Henry J era.

The ES-335 Studio has had a couple variations, this one here and this one here.

Both of those were full gloss.

You can find either of those used for under $2k all day long, I don't think either are particularly appealing guitars. Some guitars look weird without the binding and some look fine, but the ES-335 really doesn't look right without it.

There was also the ES-333 that they made back in the day, those were cool and they have a rear panel with helps them put the electronics in the guitar easier. I don't think they were very well received back in the day but are highly thought of now and the prices are high.

Anyway my point is that Gibson has tried to make cheaper ES-335 type guitars over the years to some degree or the other.

And they've also been pretty consistent with the pricing of it, when the ES-335 was introduced it was about $2500 in today's money, and remember that the 335 was the entry level to the whole new ES thin line series, the 345 and such were the upscale ones.

Like I say, looking at the pricing of other American made ES-335 guitars, I don't see a huge price difference. The Heritage version is a couple hundred bucks or so cheaper, which tells me that there's not that much wiggle room on the price. I read this article about ES-335 alternatives and virtually none of them are made in the States, and I will challenge anyone to find a professional guitar maker who can make a similar guitar for what Gibson makes it for.

I can't honestly find any grounds to say that these guitars are overpriced. I mean, fine, your Indonesian make Ibanez ArtCore is a good guitar- I've played them- but again, that's made at Indonesian wages.

Anyway, regarding the popularity of the ES-335, it's been nothing but a winner. I honestly can't think of any Gibson electric guitar that has been in production since the first day it was made other than the ES-335 and the SG... the Firebird, the Les Paul, the Explorer, the Flying V, shit- the legendary ES-175, not to mention all the wonderful jazz boxes and arch tops that ruled the world back in the day- all that shit came and went from the catalog when sales suffered. But the ES-335 has always been made.

All this talk is fun, and you should have bought my guitar- man, it was good. I almost talked myself into keeping both of them. But you should chase one down, brother... you will not care about the money after it's been spent, and you will either love the 335 or you will have a hell of a pawn towards your next guitar, either way you will never again wonder any of these questions you are wondering.

It's not like I'm some big ES-335 guy or anything, I literally got my first ES-335 delivered to me the day before the election because I was so nervous about the idea that Trump was going to win and I knew that if he did I would be massively depressed and new guitars always cheer me up. Granted, I like Gibson, and find them good value for the money, unlike yourself.

Still, as soon as I played one I was like, fuck... yeah. I get it. This thing is the real deal and that's all there is to that. I felt kind of dumb that it had taken me so long, I used to think that I didn't like hum buckers.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by Larry Mal » Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:12 pm

I guess I'll torture you now:

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Two thousand dollars, you know? I told you that you could get one at that price, even if I have to find one, buy it, buy another, and sell the other one to you... that's how far I'll go to be right.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by seenoevil II » Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:05 pm

Larry Mal wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:12 pm
I guess I'll torture you now:

Image

Image

Image

Two thousand dollars, you know? I told you that you could get one at that price, even if I have to find one, buy it, buy another, and sell the other one to you... that's how far I'll go to be right.
Man, if I could go back in time to when you offered me that guitar, I'd spend that money on.... GME and Dogecoin. Then, I'd buy Gibson and make them launch a prosumer ES line.

I don't doubt that guitar is awesome. That's the only black 335 I've ever liked the look of. The blocks do it. It's like a glass of Guiness.

You're right about the satin vs. the studio and I agree that the studios just look off.

My understanding of the 333 was that it was canceled when they realized it was cannibalizing 335 sales. I think Gibsons volume gives them a little room over the likes of Herritage to lower prices. Also, my suggestion would be that they found ways to reduce costs that pulled them away from tradition. Sorta like the AmPro v the AO.

My data for my claim that they're underrepresented comes from he NPR Tiny Desk feed. I scrolled and scrolled going back years and took count of the electric guitars. Fender is killing it, JMs in particular. There were some 335s, but tellingly, there were about as many D'Angelico, Eastman, Collings, Guild thin line, double cuts. Granted there are differences between these models, but for that portion of that sample of musicians, the case for Gibson wasn't compelling enough.

Anywho, I just PBd my 10k. Now I'm half way through a tall boy of IPA watching the Sixers, strumming my Guild, and looking at your pretty guitar. I just might tell you those launch codes if you keep this up.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by Larry Mal » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:15 pm

Get that time travel and Dogecoin, and you can get yourself a Collings ES... u, sorry. It's an i35, of all fucking things:

https://reverb.com/item/21461082-collin ... on-red?bk=

Oh, and I think this is the base line at $5500, the "LC" stands for "laminate construction".

Yet another guitar maker that can't seem to make an ES-335 in the United States for prosumer prices of $1500.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by seenoevil II » Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:59 am

Larry Mal wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:15 pm
Get that time travel and Dogecoin, and you can get yourself a Collings ES... u, sorry. It's an i35, of all fucking things:

https://reverb.com/item/21461082-collin ... on-red?bk=

Oh, and I think this is the base line at $5500, the "LC" stands for "laminate construction".

Yet another guitar maker that can't seem to make an ES-335 in the United States for prosumer prices of $1500.

Won't, not can't.
Collings is boutique.

Heritage, a much smaller outfit than Gibson, makes a figured top, nitro gloss finished 335 copy with Gibsons own machines, in Kalamazoo, for $2700. Gibson's figured 335 is $3700. There's room to come down.

Exhibit B. The 339. A nitro, gloss, figured es-339 is $2700. Useless you think that 1.5" margin of fancy plywood costs $1000.

They're keeping prices higher than they need to. That's fine. It's working for them. I just think it would work a whole lot better if they made a cheaper 335 that didn't look intentionally labotomized to protect the high priced 335. I think they'd make a lot of money doing that. I think whatever margins they make charging 3000 would be exceeded by increased sales volume if they charged 2300-2500. I think that the fact that you think it's impossible to make one for less and still be profitable is the greatest marketing feat they've ever pulled off.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by Pepe Silvia » Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:18 am

I have owned exactly one Gibson in my 22 years of playing guitar, my current Tweedy SG. I have a lot of the same hang-ups about Gibson as a company and the quality of their current instruments, this is probably the only modern Gibson I can justify owning and I cant afford pre-Norlan guitars, which are what I really want.

If I wanted a modern ES-335 or any modern Gibson I would be attracted to Heritage, and in this case the 535. Cheaper, arguably better quality and built in the original Gibson factory.

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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by sookwinder » Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:06 am

A friend of mine bought this 6 months back … great guitar

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relaxing alternative to doing actual work ...

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