The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by seenoevil II » Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:29 am

Larry Mal wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:52 pm
okeydoke.

If I despise anyone here, it's not because they have more disposable income than me.

I know you were'nt born with a silver spoon, and that you've done well to elevate your financial position in the world. That's awesome. I'm always glad to hear how that's still possible. I don't think you bought any of your guitars as a status thing, I don't. However, I don't think you realize how a $2.5-3k expenditure is quite a stretch for a lot of folks nowadays. I get what you're trying to say, but I also think this attitude comes from a place of financial privilege. In a tragically perfect microcosm of life while you got yours for 2K, much like tulips, lumber, cars, houses, college, and medical care they cost more now.

I think I have a completely different relationship to gear than many folks on here. A lot of you are collectors/appreciators/hobbyists (non-pejorative) and of course players. You have different motivations and get different rewards from your gear and the getting of your gear.

Anywho, o'er the 12 years of my OSGing, I keep forgetting that in most ways that matter, this place serves as a kind of bar for like minded folks to get together and shoot the breeze. A bunch of friends and acquaintances hanging out, enjoying the sharing of their common interest. I'm this guy who occasionally strafes the bar with unsolicited cerebral screeds that, admittedly, some people do like, sometimes, but are mostly just unpleasant and confusing.

I think, as always, we're mostly talking at crossed purposes.

Have a good one.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:21 am

seenoevil II wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:29 am
However, I don't think you realize how a $2.5-3k expenditure is quite a stretch for a lot of folks nowadays. I get what you're trying to say, but I also think this attitude comes from a place of financial privilege. In a tragically perfect microcosm of life while you got yours for 2K, much like tulips, lumber, cars, houses, college, and medical care they cost more now.
Uh... well, first of all, I bought my ES-335 in November. I'm not like some Boomer that went to college in the 60's or something here.

And at that time, I bought it for a price you said wasn't possible to find, I bought two of them at that prices. And while I'm willing to accept that there has been a 5% inflationary rate and that guitars are very popular now, I will tell you flatly that if I wanted an ES-335 for $2200 I would find it again.

Here's one that the guy is asking $2500 for, offer him less:

https://reverb.com/item/42430923-2020-g ... se-manuals

Now, if you had said that you simply can't afford an ES-335 then that would be that, there were times that I wasn't able to afford that, either.

But I don't see you saying that, I usually see you saying that these things are just status symbols, that they aren't worth what Gibson asks for them, that Epiphone is better anyway, that people that buy them aren't serious musicians like you but just dilettantes who collect them, that it's bullshit that Gibson charges more for the figured top, that's it's bullshit that Gibson charges more for the perennial great seller that is the ES-335 than they do for the less popular ES-339, and so on, that it sucks that other people here bought these and talk about them and now you don't even want one because of that, that you feel you would be sending a signal of extravagant, conspicuous consumption should you be seen playing this kind of guitar. I pay attention!

So I suppose I haven't been real clear on the "psychology" aspect of your post here, at times you wondered why you might want a Gibson ES-335 when your Epiphone pleased you, so I addressed that as best I could. We talked about marketing and branding and such. I will be happy to bow out of your thread and all, I can see that I'm not helpful. There are times when I had the idea that you simply are upset that a Gibson ES-335 costs more than you think they should cost, and that's the one thing that I can't help you with.

Except, of course, how I did.

Regardless, sorry for any confusion I caused, sorry if I made your tread be not what you wanted it to be, sorry I was not able to be helpful overall.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by seenoevil II » Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:07 pm

Larry Mal wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:21 am
But I don't see you saying that, I usually see you saying that these things are just status symbols, that they aren't worth what Gibson asks for them ...that you feel you would be sending a signal of extravagant, conspicuous consumption should you be seen playing this kind of guitar. that's it's bullshit that Gibson charges more for the perennial great seller that is the ES-335 than they do for the less popular ES-339
I've said things roughly along these lines, though you're twisting them rather severely to construe them as personal attacks.

I think that they are status symbols to some degree in certain contexts.

I don't think they're worth what Gibson charges for them. You failed to convince me otherwise because your arguments weren't compelling enough. Fucking deal with it.

I would worry that rocking up to a house show with a guitar worth more than two months' rent for said house might be a bit weird.

339's prove that figured, full gloss, hollow body guitars can be made and sold profitably at 1000 less than the price 335s.
that Epiphone is better anyway, that people that buy them aren't serious musicians like you but just dilettantes who collect them, that it's bullshit that Gibson charges more for the figured top,
This is all shit I never said. At all. Literally putting words in my mouth.
that it sucks that other people here bought these and talk about them and now you don't even want one because of that,
This was kind of a joke. What are we all going to show up to the same party with our 335's? I don't know any of you IRL. Was it kind of deflating to see 4 people buy 335s at roughly the same time? Kinda? Is that irrational? Totally. Should you have taken it and any of this so fucking personally? Probably not?
I pay attention!
Sure ya do, pal!

You're not my brother. Buzz off.

Edit: I moved one point from the "shit I never said" section to the "shit I kinda said but you took out of context" section.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by Embenny » Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:23 pm

"Let's talk about this topic on a discussion forum."

"Here are my thoughts."

"Fuck off."

Cool cool cool. This is going well.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by seenoevil II » Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:28 pm

mbene085 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:23 pm
"Let's talk about this topic on a discussion forum."

"Here are my thoughts."

"Fuck off."

Cool cool cool. This is going well.
Again with the misquotes and self serving recasting of events. It's all there in text. I'm done with this.

Talk to your boy.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by Embenny » Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:54 pm

I would have thought it was fairly obvious that those weren't literal quotes. Just pointing out the one-sided hostility in that recent interaction, though I get the distinct impression that any form of reply here is probably throwing gasoline on a fire.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:03 pm

seenoevil II wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:07 pm


I don't think they're worth what Gibson charges for them. You failed to convince me otherwise because your arguments weren't compelling enough. Fucking deal with it.
Not sure I have to deal with it at all, really, since I also didn't pay what Gibson charges for them, I bought mine used. I have never argued that they are worth any price at all, since how can I put a value on how other people feel about the value of their purchases?

If you bought one new, and feel you got the value you expected for what you paid for it, then you did, you know? Value is in the mind of the buyer and it's not something I can speak to at all. I would not have paid the full price and I couldn't have paid the full price. But it doesn't matter what I do... people pay what they pay for them, it doesn't matter how I feel about it. It shouldn't matter to you.

That'll be my final advice to you, amigo- no one at any hypothetical house party is going to know what your guitar costs in order to compare it to their rent. They aren't going to care- everyone knows instruments can be expensive. If you are playing professionally, they'll think you spent what you had to in order to make the music you are. They'll like the music- they won't care about the guitar.

The number of factors that go into buying a new guitar is surprisingly small- cut yours back a bit.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by seenoevil II » Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:01 pm

Here's my last post in this thread.

Just been to the shop and spent some quality time with a brand new 60's ES-335 retailing at $2,999.99.

Sound: fantastic through the tone master deluxe I was trying it through. Those pickups were the best PAF's I've personally tried. I really liked them. Balanced, in no way shape or form muddy, jangly yet authoritative. Definitely "can do it all pickups." The pots were express and tonally useful. Adjusting the volume or tone was a useful exercise in tweaking the tone.

Look: beautiful shiny nitro finish over and wonderful cherry red. Flawless...except where the heel meets the body and the polishers just sorta gave up, so the finish got a bit streaky and uneven. Also, some sort of something on the neck. Something melted the nitro in a spot. Apparently, I was the first ever costumer to demo it, so either it happened at the shop or arrived that way. Nice piece of rosewood for the board. Looked a bit pale and a bit dry though. Would've definitely hit it with some oil. Overall though, very nice looking...except for those flaws... and the drops of red lacquer inside the body.

Nut & Frets: all great. Straight neck. nubs were tight and didn't grab the high E. Nut was well cut and not any bulkier than it needed to be.

Sooooo, would I buy this particular 335?

Absolutely not.

The action was a touch high. About .004" on the treble and .005/6" at the 12th (yes I brought a wallet sized measuring tool, don't you?). "That's not that high!" I hear you saying. Except the bridge was completely bottomed out on the treble side. As in, at the end of its travel, the strings were still .004 above the frets. "Maybe the neck had a ton of relief. You were the first to play it after all. Maybe nobody set it up." True, nobody set it up. I could tell because the intonation was at least 10 cents sharp on the B and E strings. However, siting the neck didn't reveal the kind of relief that would be required to cause that high an action with a bottomed out bridge. In fact, to my eyes at least, it looked dead straight.

So, there you have it. The same old story for me at least when it comes to Gibson. Looks pretty (except for the rough spots), has really impressive hardware. But then there's the but. This time it's a completely inexcusable, completely devastating and irreversible neck geometry error.

Bingo Bango. No 335. No Gibsons. If that's what leaves the factory for sale at full retail, then no thank you, sir or madame. GAS cured.

Maybe your gibsons are better. Don't know. Don't care.

It's been...fun?
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by Embenny » Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:19 pm

Maggieo wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:51 am
I think Burstbuckers work best in Les Pauls. I've got the BB1 and BB2 in my '59 Epiphone Outfit, and they're damn close to the 70s DiMarzio's in my Hamer Special.
Interesting. You've got more experience than me. Why do you think that, and what do you think suits 335s better?

That Epiphone is quite a looker, and I say that as someone who isn't attracted in any way to Les Pauls.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by Maggieo » Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:54 am

mbene085 wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:19 pm
Maggieo wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:51 am
I think Burstbuckers work best in Les Pauls. I've got the BB1 and BB2 in my '59 Epiphone Outfit, and they're damn close to the 70s DiMarzio's in my Hamer Special.
Interesting. You've got more experience than me. Why do you think that, and what do you think suits 335s better?

That Epiphone is quite a looker, and I say that as someone who isn't attracted in any way to Les Pauls.
I've never had a 335, so this is POOMA, but Eastman puts Lollar Imperials and the Duncan '59/Jazz combo in their semi-hollows.

The Epi is a big win- it's different than my Standard (with DiMarzio 36th Anniversary PUPs), but, IMO, the equal in sound, and with the chunkier neck, more playable for me.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by luau » Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:01 pm

seenoevil II wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:01 pm
The action was a touch high. About .004" on the treble and .005/6" at the 12th (yes I brought a wallet sized measuring tool, don't you?). "That's not that high!" I hear you saying. Except the bridge was completely bottomed out on the treble side. As in, at the end of its travel, the strings were still .004 above the frets. "Maybe the neck had a ton of relief. You were the first to play it after all. Maybe nobody set it up." True, nobody set it up. I could tell because the intonation was at least 10 cents sharp on the B and E strings. However, siting the neck didn't reveal the kind of relief that would be required to cause that high an action with a bottomed out bridge. In fact, to my eyes at least, it looked dead straight.
Not that it matters, but the thumb wheels on these are recessed on the bottom to fit over the inserts in the body, so if you didn't actually screw the thumb wheel down all the way, over the insert, there was probably still a substantial amount of travel left even though there appeared to be none.

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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by Embenny » Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:25 pm

Larry Mal wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:35 pm
Which brings me to the ES-339. I had one in my possession for a month or so, from my man who I bought the brown (now there's a color I don't like) Stratocaster. Same deal, he needed to put some money together, and it would have been a good deal for me, easy payments, he probably ended up dumping it at a huge loss which he tends to do.

I hated it. I remember flipping it over and seeing "Custom Shop" on the back there, which at the time I believed it to be, it was a new model. Turns out that Gibson was just slapping "Custom Shop" on non-custom ES instruments (my ES-330 has it) for no clear reason, regardless I was marveling at how such a piece of shit could be a custom instrument.

I was pretty anti-Gibson in those days, and unskilled at setting guitars up, I might get along with it more now. But at the time I found it to be a heavy, uninspiring, overwrought piece of junk that I didn't want at any price. I hadn't learned how to reconcile with PAF pickups, regardless I hated the way it sounded, played, and felt. I do not remember it having a pleasing acoustic sound to it. I don't remember it having anything good about it.

I hope your experience is different and it very well might be.

Frankly it set me back from Gibson for a few more years. I didn't get the Gibson thing until I got my Firebird, and that ES-339 and my previous uninspiring Les Paul Studio were so lame I might have never reconciled with Gibson if they didn't make the Firebird, which I always loved the looks of and just had to have. Turns out they are wonderful, but I bought that based on my eyes falling in love. I had never played one.

And like you, when I played my ES-335 for the first time, which was immediately before the 2020 election, I thought that it played in a way that I hadn't quite found before. I think that Gibsons as a rule play great, somehow the ES-335 was a grade higher. It makes me feel like some chording is a little more possible- I also got that from the ES-330.

And I also wondered why it had taken me so long to get there... I mean, the guitar is legendary, it's one of the very few Gibsons that they have never quit making for a reason (the other is the SG). Sometimes you just gotta go along with what everybody else says, you know?
Ok, so I have to circle back around to this because this evening, I went and played a 339. Someone offered me the 339 and cash for the 335, so I thought, "if it's as nice as this 335 but smaller, and I can get some money back in the process, that's a win-win!"

Oh boy. Was it ever not a win-win. I had never encountered one of these mythical "shameful Gibson QC disasters" you read about, until I beheld this guitar.

It was a 2008 "Custom Shop" that wasn't made in the Custom shop, just like yours. I'll get the good out of the way. The neck was huge and felt amazing, and acoustically, it was nearly as vibrant and lovely as my 335.

But man. I'm going to have trouble using words to paint an adequate picture of how this thing looked.

At probably 30 different points along the binding, there were these weird, light-colored voids or bubbles in the finish. Totally flat to the touch, but looked as though the finish had separated from something. Never seen anything like it before, but they were everywhere from the neck through the body in varying sizes.

The finish in general was also so badly checked that it was starting to flake off in places. Several spots around the edge of the headstock and nut had finish crusting up and separating from the wood like a sunburn that was trying to peel. All the finish edges around each letter of the Gibson inlay and the decorative shape in the center of the headstock had cracked and were lifting and turning opaque. You could feel the edges around the letters.

And the neck heel. The guy had had the guitar since 2012, and wasn't aware of a neck reset but either it already had a neck reset in its first four years of its life, or something was massively wrong. Half of the heel (treble strings to the middle) looked OK with just a slightly noticeable linear joint in tangential lighting, but then from the middle to the bass strings, there was this massive, jagged finish crack with more of those clear crusty edges on either side.

So either it was a neck reset where only half of the overlying finish repair blended properly, or the glue joint was so badly unstable that it was shifting and caused the grand canyon of finish cracks.

I've seen nitro guitars that were moved between hot and cold, left in zero humidity, etc, but never in my life have I seen a 13 year-old finish in this disastrous a state. I can't believe it was massively abused climate-wise since its setup and functional status were so great.

It really just looked like something was chemically wrong with how they finished it. The guy was hoping to get "mint condition ES-339" trade value for it and there was just no chance I'd ever consider taking on a guitar that so clearly is screaming, "not all of my problems are as easily spotted as my finish." Especially that probable neck reset. This is obviously a guitar that has been busy imploding since the day it was made.

It gave me a deeper appreciation of how perfectly my '95 335 was built. 26 years later and other than some patina, it's no worse for wear than the day it was made.

I'll definitely never consider an ES-339 sight-unseen, that's for sure. It's such a shame, because it actually felt and sounded great. If I could find as lively an example as this one, it would be a perfect smaller and lighter 335 substitute for my purposes, as long as it wasn't trying to shed its skin or implode or explode or whatever the hell was going on with this one. It was so sad seeing such a nice guitar with such fatal flaws. It was like one or two of the people who worked on it wanted to quit but decided to try doing such a bad job that they get severance pay for being fired first.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by Larry Mal » Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:14 am

mbene085 wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:25 pm

It really just looked like something was chemically wrong with how they finished it. The guy was hoping to get "mint condition ES-339" trade value for it and there was just no chance I'd ever consider taking on a guitar that so clearly is screaming, "not all of my problems are as easily spotted as my finish." Especially that probable neck reset. This is obviously a guitar that has been busy imploding since the day it was made.
Crazy. The one I had briefly didn't have any of those problems, well, maybe it does by now. It was just an awful guitar.

I wonder if this one wasn't just mistreated its whole life regardless, I would imagine that Gibson wasn't using a different finish on these and if self-destroying finishes were endemic to the 2008 Gibson guitars we would all be hearing a lot about that.

Maybe they did, though, or maybe these guitars did get a little more individual attention and it was to the detriment.

I think you dodged a bullet, really... they really are totally lame guitars, my experience turned me off on the model completely but frankly it's just a boring, stupid and uninspiring concept anyway.

I usually say this stuff about Fender here but let's give Gibson some attention also:

We had been mocking the concept of the solid-bodied ES guitars on our email, and deservedly so.

And the ES-339 is pretty much Gibson doing what Fender often does, being unable to actually design a fresh and exciting new guitar, instead they just slapped shit from other models together and hoped for the best. "Let's make the ES-335 be a Les Paul or something... people like those guitars."

Like forcing the ES-335 and Les Paul to breed or something, and it still wasn't a useful hybrid, so they revisited the concept again and came up with this thing.

Somehow I find that less awful than the ES-339 but I haven't had to actually play one so maybe I'm just innocent and naive to how lame that thing is, also.

So I would say something like sorry that didn't work out for you but I think it actually did work out for you- sorry you wasted your time, though. Regardless your strategy of trading guitars upward would have been irrevocably thrown off course trading the well loved classic ES-335 (that you should be trading upwards for a Country Gentleman or White Falcon or something) for the wretched lab grown embarrassment that is the ES-339.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by sal paradise » Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:40 am

I always thought a smaller bodied es was a great idea for heavy rock. But mainly because I find the 335 size uncomfortable. A noise gate is a perfectly reasonable way to play a semi-hollow with high gain.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by sal paradise » Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:41 am

sal paradise wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:40 am
I always thought a smaller bodied es was a great idea for heavy rock. Sad to hear these crappy experiences.

It’s mainly because I find the 335 size weird looking on me. A noise gate is a perfectly reasonable way to play a semi-hollow with high gain. So I could just get over my ego.
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