TV Yellow "myth and lore" or, "a color of contested origin"

[shigginpit]

So, the TV yellow origin story I always heard as a young person had to do with black and white television cameras picking up hot spots due to bright white colors, so they would avoid bright white by using heather or yellow colors and that these colors showed up as white on a black and white television broadcast.

The people who were a bit older than me, would go on to reason that the original instrument catalogues (mostly now lost to the ages) listed the guitars as a "limed mahogany" finish, and at the time "liming" was a popular finish on furniture, thus many television sets which were housed in large wooden cabinets were finished in a limed mahogany which had a yellow appearance, and thus the Gibson name TV yellow, was a reference to a finish for an actual television set.

The last story I only heard within the last few years, and I have to say, it makes the most sense out of any of them. Though I've lost the citation, it supposedly came from a reliable source like someone who worked at Gibson headquarters in product development at the time of its inception. It was probably for good reason Gibson didn't want to clarify the origin of the name. Apparently, the Fender Telecaster was the bane of Ted McCarty's existence and he and the other execs were very motivated to find a way to take back their market share from Fender musical instruments.

In the lab, they were working on a flat top, solid slab bodied instrument, to compete with the popular and reasonably priced Telecaster model, who's recognizable butterscotch blonde color (the original blonde, not white blonde, and not the heavy smoker aged butterscotch we know today) was also mimicking a "limed" finish that you would find on furniture (or a television) of the era. At the time, Gibson had no guitars finished in this popular new colorway or in a lower non-professional price range (les paul jr released in 1954, tv yellow by 1955, melody maker not until 1959).

This slab bodied tele-buster competition guitar under development at Gibson was known in the lab as the "Les Paul Telecaster Version: Yellow".

In other words, Les Paul T.V. yellow. Obviously, you can't release a guitar with the competitors name on it, but they supposedly kept the abbreviated designation of TV.

Generic poll type thing, which story do you buy into? Heard any other myths or conjecture surrounding this? Inquiring minds and all that.

[UlricvonCatalyst]

No idea, but I'd heard the monochrome (TV) set explanation before and hadn't really questioned it till now.

[BoringPostcards]

No idea, but I'd heard the monochrome (TV) set explanation before and hadn't really questioned it till now.

I’d heard the same. Would be interesting to know the real story, even if it’s just what we’ve heard all along.

[rumfoord]

Ooh, interesting

I think it could be a mix of everything, but I found a couple references. Not with a lot of googling or research—so idk.

I imagine that the limed-mahogany explanation is the most correct along with the fact that Les Paul and Mary Ford did short TV shows where they played Les Paul guitars and sold Listerine (maybe it's the color of Listerine? jk, jk, don't want to sarcastically start a new internet theory).

I found this history that says Gibson had been making 3/4 sized "junior" versions of guitars and mandolins since the 1920s. And they introduced the LP Junior in 1954 with just one bridge pickup, as well as the first LP TV model.

Les Paul and Mary Ford started doing a radio show in 1950, and then it was also 1954 that they started doing 5-min TV shows called Les Paul and Mary Ford at Home. At that time, limed-oak and limed-mahogany furniture were popular and stood out better on TV. And the catalog for the first LPTV says "Designed to emphasize the latest in modern appearance with beautiful limed mahogany finish...".



So I imagine everything was popular to connect to TV, that it was a color people saw on TV, the color of their TVs, and the color of a lot of the guitars on TV (telecasters, gold tops, natural finished archtops, and the guitars Les Paul and Mary Ford played). They probably chose that color just like they chose the color of the furniture: to look better than crap on TV. But I don't know that they wanted it to look white, or that the marketing was anything about how your new guitar is going to look on TV. I think the marketing must have mainly been like, "you know, TV! it's hip, it's for kids. This is what's on TV!". ..more like "the TV signature model" than the model that will look white on TV.



I also found this 1960 catalog of a double cut TV model and Mary Ford (and a cropped out Les Paul):



The double cut special has an SG model designation. The first SG was from 1961, and I found this oral history where Ted McCarty says that the early 60s was when he started wanting to distance Gibson from the messy divorce that Les Paul and Mary Ford were having. He says they agreed to stop endorsement/royalty contract and wait until "he got his financial problems and the problems with his wife sorted out" to finalize everything. Les Paul says in that history that it was 1962 that the contract came due right about the same time he and Mary decided to split. It was kind of a scandal in 1963 when Mary put in the divorce papers that Les had been cruel and doing things like making her record when she was sick. Les sued because Mary had been having an affair and was always drunk.

[MattK]

Once you think about it, it’s screamingly obvious that the LP TV model is a Telecaster version of the carved top original.

[rumfoord]

So, yes ^

but I think it was the case that the entire LP project was in response to the telecaster. Les Paul built the log, and then Gibson contacted him after the telecaster came out, and then they made the first LP. It looked like this (although I'm not sure if that pickguard was really there at the beginning):



To me, the first goldtops already look a lot like the telecaster. I imagine Gibson patting itself on the back for having a sweet telecaster-looking guitar but with a cool ass carved top, then nobody cares about the carved top and people are buying Fenders, then Gibson says "whatever fine you want no top? you got it". I think if they called it the Telecaster Version in the shop that they must have meant "hold tight! we're going full telecaster!"

[ThePearDream]

The name being "Telecaster version" seems really implausible to me. For me, that explanation assumes too many things, relying totally on third hand anecdotes.

Never mind the fact that the single pickup Fender they copied was called the Esquire in 1954.

Limed Mahogany and Blonde furniture finishes were the rage in the 50s. The Kalamazoo factory was also in the middle of one of the major furniture manufacturing regions in the US at that time. To me the colors being named after the furniture makes the most sense.

[MattK]

Yeah, “Telecaster Version” strains credibility, but the Telecaster was named after broadcasting, then telecasting, and TV itself was the cool thing, as rumfoord said. So a television inspired name sounds likely. On a flat slab single cut body, finished in blonde, with a black plastic pickguard screwed to the top, and a single pickup.

[sessylU]

I could imagine some salespeople or other workers calling it Telecaster version as a joke, but no more than that.

Naming it after the furniture seems most likely, but I hadn't heard of that before now.

To be honest, I'd always believed the first explanation and assumed TV yellow was a nickname that emerged long after they'd appeared on TV. It seems counter-intuitive that you would develop a special colour that appears white only on TV, then give the game away by selling that colour with that name on it. As if Marshall had catalogues with unloaded dummy amps so you could build a wall of amps like your heroes on TV.

The fact that they were advertising it as TV Yellow at the time makes me lean towards the "this is the same colour as the other fancy new furniture that you already own" explanation.

[shigginpit]

This is all interesting, but according to Wikipedia (not that everything on wikipedia is reliable) the first time fender used the word Telecaster was in 1951 after the Gretsch cease and desist order on the Broadcaster name so I don't think it's as implausible in a frame of time sense of possibility. I also have some older paper copy guitar books that I got in the 90's which I'm positive give the same timeline.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fender_Telecaster

This is also the approximate timeframe I was familiar with, and McCarty having joined Gibson in 1949 and taken over as lead in 1950 there's a bit of overlap as the Esquire and Broadcaster were already popular instruments and the "Nocaster" was very short lived only from the time of the cease and decist by Gretsch in Feb 1951 (shown here)



to the exhaustion of the original waterslides they were trying to make use of, the subsequent rename also took place only a few days later in Feb 1951 and according to this article and a vague description of 1952 being the year the "classic telecaster layout" started appearing on guitars, it seems to indicate that the name telecaster was in the catalogue by at least 1952. The nocaster was just being thrifty as they were cutting the word "Broadcaster" off the waterslide and using the fender name only.

This picture of a 1951 ad seems to indicate Fender literally blacked out the Broadcaster name and printed "Telecaster" above it as promotional copy and that's as early as the year the cease and desist occurred.



https://www.guitarplayer.com/gear/the-h ... telecaster
https://www.fender.com/articles/behind- ... er-history

So the then introduction of the LP jr in 1954 (as a sunburst) and all these other events were all framed within a window of only a few years. It is, however, a strain, as is said but crazier things have happened. Especially in the 1950's which was still essentially the "wild west" era as far as electric guitar design and marketing.

Regarding McCarty's recollection of Gibson distancing themselves from Les Paul's name after the divorce, I've always heard that story was Gibson PR damage control from the reimagining of the Les Paul guitar into the SG bodystyle, and that Les Paul himself, who had worked closely with Gibson designing his guitar, thought the SG was cheap and not something he would want his name on. Also that the redesign was purposefully done in secret and it was done without his approval. He approached Gibson and said he wanted his name removed from the guitar, which ultimately happened when his contract expired and his partnership with Gibson was at least temporarily dissolved.

This article from guitarworld news restates something along those lines and says it's a "well known piece of Gibson lore"

https://www.guitarworld.com/news/why-le ... -gibson-sg

I would also need to look harder when I have more time but regarding the original Les Paul design and the goldtop versions I had always heard it was meant to compete with and slightly resemble the Paul Bigsby Merle Travis guitar designs. This article says that Fender, Bigsby and Les Paul all used to get together and talk about pickup design and then it details how the more Les Paul esque shaped Merle Travis guitar came to be designed and the article says "the body presaged the Les Paul" gently saying the Les Paul guitar resembles the Bigsby Merle Travis model. I'll have to look later for better sources on this and the telecaster story.

https://www.premierguitar.com/gear/forg ... aul-bigsby

Anyways, I think that there's also merit to the speculation that television was a "cool" thing and that a lot of these names had to do with radio and television technology (not the carved top Les Paul though). I didn't assume we'd find the dead sea scrolls of the TV yellow mystery, but I still think it's interesting that it could be any of these and I'm open minded as to which, if any, could be true. I certainly don't think it's so far fetched that any one of these theories is light years ahead of the rest but if I had to dig deep I'd say it's probably more a reference to the furniture/television liming aspect, as the original sunburst model was not billed as the tv model, and tv seems to be specifically associated with the range of colors we know as TV yellow. I just don't think there's any hard data to back up the speculation which is why the title is "myth and lore" not "newly discovered facts"

[ThePearDream]

The timeline definitely fits. Really, everything seems to fit perfectly on the "Telecaster Version" story, but it all feels too perfect. It sounds right because it's probably a made up story that fits with known facts. But it has no actual evidence to support it. It sounds like a basic internet conspiracy bullshit to me. It would guess this theory originated with some nut-job posting on a Les Paul forum or TGP years ago.

I find it far more likely that Gibson bought the same color of lacquer that a furniture manufacturer down the road was using to finish their television consoles. like Fender did with automotive lacquer, because it was there. Guitar manufacturing has always been a niche industry compared to furniture, and has always leaned heavily on the furniture industry supply lines in regards to woods and finishes.

Any of these theories could be true, but it's the simplest explanation that should be assumed to be true.

[shigginpit]

It's reasonable to believe that it's internet garbage and I wouldn't be surprised to learn that was the case, I'll have to look for the original source I saw, it was a few years ago but was not an internet forum post. With mahogany, at least traditional mahogany like they were using in the 1950's, that color while maintaining minimal opacity can't be achieved with lacquer color. Liming is a process by which the wood is stripped of the pigment using lime or liming wax, it's a chemical process, it's more common in the furniture industry but that's what limed mahogany refers to. Mahogany only gets darker as it ages and is exposed to UV light, TV yellow guitars have further yellowing of the lacquer but the pigment doesn't return to the wood because it's been chemically stripped. Anyhow when I have time later I'll dig a little for a source and it may come up as already disproven, I remember hearing the monochrome tv camera explanation in the 90's and then my uncle who was playing guitar in the late 60's and 70's had at some point after that probably been the first person I hard to cite the limed mahogany TV and furniture finishes as the origin, so people were apparently thinking that for some time before the popularity of the internet. The "Telecaster Version" I definitely did not read anything about until long after the internet took hold of the world but a lot of fingers start connecting on the internet and information that is implausible sometimes turns out to be true and is spread due to the finely connected nature of the "web", with that said, I think the chances are slim but as a general statement Occam's razor can't be used define all situations, it's only an assertion of logic based reasoning.

[shigginpit]

It might have been this ultimate guitar article in which I read the telecaster theory, but I feel like it was before April of last year and I recall mention of an inside source (which could just as easily have been a B.S. citation). I'm not even convinced that the author of this specific article was fully awake at the time of writing the content because he cites limed mahogany as "limited mahogany" so there was clearly not a lot of fact checking done before compiling and publishing. I'll continue to dig for it a bit later in the day and see if I can find the original content.

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/article ... ish-130669

[Embenny]

The name being "Telecaster version" seems really implausible to me. For me, that explanation assumes too many things, relying totally on third hand anecdotes.

Never mind the fact that the single pickup Fender they copied was called the Esquire in 1954.

Limed Mahogany and Blonde furniture finishes were the rage in the 50s. The Kalamazoo factory was also in the middle of one of the major furniture manufacturing regions in the US at that time. To me the colors being named after the furniture makes the most sense.

Yeah, this sums up my feelings. Gibson didn't give Fender that much credit or respect in the 50s. They laughed Les Paul out of the building the first time around because they didn't view solid bodies as guitars.

To think they'd go from that to naming one of their own products in reference to Fender's creation within a couple of years is way too much IMO.

[fuzzjunkie]

I have heard the name was associated with Television cameras after the fact and the limed mahogany television cabinet explanation makes sense, but I don’t think I can buy the Telecaster Version story.

Gibson was known for higher end guitars while Fender was more working class. Early Gibsons were more in line with Gretsch than Fender.

I always saw the Telecaster as taking its base body shape from the Western box acoustic guitar shape; with squared off shoulders and adding a cut away, while Gibson went with the classic rounded Spanish acoustic guitar shape. The Les Paul style is much closer to the Gretsch Duo Jet (TVs and Jets were big ‘50s design motifs) than the Telecaster style. Round body, fancy inlays, arch top, fancy finishes and 3x3 headstocks on a glued in neck.

Yes, the slab body and dot inlays that the Juniors have are similar to Fenders, but I always saw them as the entry level or “student” versions to boost sales from beginners before they graduated to “real” Gibsons like the ES-335.