I am not going to buy another expensive guitar....

[lalalandstudios]

OK, so this is a bit OT, but since the charcoal jag's sold (not me, I swear....) and the discussion has turned a bit, let me say this:  I think there's a real value to buying vintage guitars and more and more - vintage amps from someone who's well respected and honest (certainly someone like Gil fits that description) even when the prices are seemingly outtasite. There are too many scammers and crooks out there and you have to be very very careful who you deal with - and at least to me, its worth something to deal with someone reputable (of course you still need to know your stuff cold).

There's a nice article in this months VG magazine about the increasing number of fake vintage AMPs out there - mostly 60's Marshall's and Voxes - and how increasingly easy its becoming to get burned when trying to get a deal from ebay or even certain dealers. I know that we're comfortable with our deep knowledge of the offset thing (and until recently there wasn't enough $$ in faking or otherwise misrepresenting these), but to me amps are a little different. Sure I've bought amps off ebay, but I'd never do it for anything really high end (like that all original Vox AC15 1x12 that I can't seem to find....)

[blacktiger]

I certainly see your point, especially if you're buying as an investment.  It's just that I'm a bit baffled by Gil's strategy when it comes to amps.  Maybe he loves them enough (as evidenced by the breathtaking amp museum in the back of the shop) that he doesn't care if he sells them or not.  All I know is that the same 2 blonde Twins have been in there for literally years.  When I first asked the prices about 4 or 5 years ago one was around $3K and one was around $4K.  I asked again a few weeks ago and they were up to $8K and $10K.  I can understand paying a bit more for something from a dealer you can trust, but $3K to $4K more seems a bit too much of a premium to me...

[jetset]

There was a time when you had to buy a vintage blonde twin or JMI AC15 in order to get a premium amp to play.  Nowadays you can get/make a kit clone for around $1k that sound just as good thanks to Weber, Mercury, Valvetech et al.  So clean vintage amps are in my opinion, strictly for collectors and the prices are collectors prices.

Same thing with offsets.  I've built  them from parts, and if they're done well they play as well as any vintage piece.  I sold off all but one of my vintage JM's a while back and have no regrets playing my partsmasters and refins.  Now that Lollar, Novak and others are making great JM pickups there are no parts that you can't get, though I still wish someone would do some decent tortoise shell pickguard material.  That charcoal frost Jag will probably never get played again.  Sad.
-J

[fullerplast]

I couldn't agree more. I too have been building my own "vintage" guitars. I got rid of all my vintage offsets and swore I was "over it". But then I found my '58 recently and the game is (somewhat) back on. But still, it's a refin with some slight routing and I didn't have to sacrifice a testicle to get it.

I don't have any super high-buck collector's pieces. But I agree they are a great investment and something you would never lose on... even at today's prices. So I can clearly see both sides of it. I guess what it boils down to is if one can afford to have that amount of cash tied up, and/or be willing to pay the interest on it. It would still be worth it at that if you kept it.

[mezcalhead]

they are a great investment and something you would never lose on... even at today's prices.

That's still debatable .. there are plenty of people who think the bubble will burst sometime .. the baby boomers will die off or get too old to play and the coming generations won't necessarily be fixated on the gear their heroes used, or even into playing guitar at all.

If you look back 50 or 100 years ago, the stuff that was collectable then hasn't all held its value until now.

[fullerplast]

I'll give you that.

I was thinking more along the lines of the current spike. What you pay today may be high but all things equal, would be right in a year or so, then surpass it in another year.

Of course, we can't expect it to go on forever, and it will probably soften. Though I doubt that it will ever burst wide open, if you truly have a pristine and desireable example.

As an analogy, I remember when Hemi Cudas were selling for like $45-60K in the 80s, and correct GTOs were selling for $25K. Everyone lamented that the bubble would burst for many of the reasons you cite (baby boomers, etc.), and it did. Prices dropped in the 90s... but the examples affected most were the poorer restorations. The good ones didn't lose too much, though they sure didn't gain. But the trend started back up and spiked higher than ever. 

Those who didn't bail out at a modest loss came out incredibly well.

[lalalandstudios]

I think you're all making really great points - my only real point above is that although seemingly insane from a price point - really good, honest, reputable VG dealers (bordering on oxymoronic I know) - actually do bring some value to the table in this scammy flakey vintage guitar world. That said I won't buy 12.5K Jags no matter how purty the paint...

Bottom line though - a vintage guitar or amp IS an investment that you can PLAY - the latter of which is the whole appeal. If you can't play it and enjoy it in a visceral and real way, whats the point of getting it, you can do better in real estate or stocks...

Fortunately we can buy/build great and cheaper options to the beaucoup buck vintage guitar and amp scene, and in many cases you're right that they're every bit as good as instruments to make music with - which is what its really about. I still think there's something special about a 40+ year instrument that was made in a different era. I loved and bought vintage JM's when NOBODY wanted them, only b/c I love them, not b/c I thought they'd be valuable.

Finally, I don't think we need to worry about what the bubble is going to look like in 50-100 years, I for one doubt many of us will still be around. So in the mid term, the clean guitars and amps (adjustments aside) should be a good investment that we can also enjoy every nite (try that with a 401K)

Confession, all this "investment" talk is a great rationalization for indulging an unhealthy guitar obsession...

[scottme]

I believe nearly all excellent quality vintage gear, whether it be cars guitars etc, will always have great value.

[zhivago]

I loved and bought vintage JM's when NOBODY wanted them, only b/c I love them, not b/c I thought they'd be valuable.

that's it right there...if you love 'em, that's what counts.


I'll throw my 2p in saying that yes, I love seeing all-original examples...seeing pics of them opened up and seeing the parts all there, dated, just like in the books.



I only have one vintage Jazzmaster at the moment...my beloved '61, and I gotta say, when the amp's on 11, and the band's rockin' out, it's not just a vintage guitar...it's an amazing responsive instrument that's an extension of myself

I know it sounds corny, but I really do feel like it's a part of me when we play, and it's all so, so loud in the room....we had a pre-gig rehearsal tonight (playing on friday) and on the last time we did the set at the rehearsal, I HAD to take my earplugs off to hear it in it's full glory....the organic sound of the pickups, the worn neck etc make the experience of playing so much more.

of course, there can be new guitars that will feel amazing...but there is just something about them aged pups and that worn neck.....


my ears are now ringing like hell...but hey, somehow it doesn't matter


I think people collecting JMs and Jags and other offsets really truly love the guitars in a slightly different way than strat/tele collectors, who must be influenced by just about everyone who's played those guitars in the past.

the people who collect the offset "ugly ducklings" are cool by me....especially when they take great pics for me to drool over

[StevenO]

Well said, zhivago.

It's kind of odd but I liked the offsets before I even played guitar. I started out on bass and I always loved the look of jazzmasters and jaguars, even when I was only around 12 or so and had no idea who used them or if they were popular or not. Although I soon realized that all the bands that I listen to today all play some sort of offset. I wonder if there is some sort of relation there. I'm deffinitely more likely to take a band seriously when I see them playing offsets.

[lalalandstudios]

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Its working so far....

(BTW, I like the band Scott, very nice stuff)

[dinosaur]

The sonic blue and black guitars are both killer.  They always seem to get in these great collections.

[Infliktor]

I like the LAke placid Blue one

[zhivago]

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to die for!!! 

[Stereordinary]

MY FIRST DROOLY ICON!!!