Capacitor Placement

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timtam
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Re: Capacitor Placement

Post by timtam » Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:24 am

Oddly, the similar-generation SD diagram of the jag has the standard Fender wiring in the rhythm circuit, not the non-standard wiring they published for the same pot in the jazzmaster ...
Image
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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Re: Capacitor Placement

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:53 am

Huh. At least they've published both...
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Re: Capacitor Placement

Post by jorri » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:17 am

Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:32 am
What would be the difference in variations for the rhythm circuit, sound-wise? Any point to one vs the other? My instinct would be to wire a rhythm circuit the way Fender designed...
Just a mildly informed guess:
- there is more volume loss due to it being wired like volume with resistance in signal path
- there is no resonant peak. Like the cocked wah type effect when tone is very low.
- probably changes cutoff frequencies and amount off attenuation quite differently. A single resistor is different to a potential divider which applies a ratio. The fact there is resistance in signal "pushes" more signal to ground, so yes its likely stronger.

+Notice the Jag lead has an extra resistor. I think it affects taper of the control and basically negates some of the effects of wiring it this way.

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Re: Capacitor Placement

Post by jorri » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:19 am

Id say its a more perfect lower resonance highpass.

But one of those will reduce volume. You take frequencies, volume reduces.

Unless a big resonant peak is made like by the less natural sounding "regular" two wire way of wiring.

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Re: Capacitor Placement

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:11 am

Awesome. Thanks for the reply Jorri!! I'll likely try out both to see what I like, but this is good information. I do wish I had more of a proper electrical theory background sometimes.
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Re: Capacitor Placement

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:44 am

Image

I'm back to messing with my project schematic designs, and I was wondering something.

A few of you guys had mentioned that the modern wiring and 60's wiring shown here are electrically identical, but I was wondering about a fourth way to wire it, and if it would make any difference to feel or sound. If I connected the capacitor from the middle lug of the tone pot (like the modern) and the middle/output lug of the volume (50's). Would that be any different?
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Re: Capacitor Placement

Post by timtam » Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:58 am

Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:44 am
I'm back to messing with my project schematic designs, and I was wondering something.

A few of you guys had mentioned that the modern wiring and 60's wiring shown here are electrically identical, but I was wondering about a fourth way to wire it, and if it would make any difference to feel or sound. If I connected the capacitor from the middle lug of the tone pot (like the modern) and the middle/output lug of the volume (50's). Would that be any different?
The volume pot lug that the tone circuit filter comes off is the key element that determines if you have 50s wiring (middle/output lug) or modern/60s wiring (first/input lug). So in your scenario it is still 50s wiring because the cap comes off the middle volume pot lug. And the tone circuit is still cap->resistance->ground (or could be equivalently resistance->cap->ground). So the result would be no different electrically from the 50s wiring in the diagram.
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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Re: Capacitor Placement

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:39 pm

timtam wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:58 am
Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:44 am
I'm back to messing with my project schematic designs, and I was wondering something.

A few of you guys had mentioned that the modern wiring and 60's wiring shown here are electrically identical, but I was wondering about a fourth way to wire it, and if it would make any difference to feel or sound. If I connected the capacitor from the middle lug of the tone pot (like the modern) and the middle/output lug of the volume (50's). Would that be any different?
The volume pot lug that the tone circuit filter comes off is the key element that determines if you have 50s wiring (middle/output lug) or modern/60s wiring (first/input lug). So in your scenario it is still 50s wiring because the cap comes off the middle volume pot lug. And the tone circuit is still cap->resistance->ground (or could be equivalently resistance->cap->ground). So the result would be no different electrically from the 50s wiring in the diagram.
Ok cool. Would there be any advantage/disadvantage to using the center tone pot lug vs the side lug? Would it feel any different, like taper-wise? Or is it just preference?
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Re: Capacitor Placement

Post by timtam » Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:22 am

Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:39 pm
Ok cool. Would there be any advantage/disadvantage to using the center tone pot lug vs the side lug? Would it feel any different, like taper-wise? Or is it just preference?
The tone control acts simply as a variable resistor (as opposed to the volume control which acts as a voltage divider). So all the resistance "effect" comes from the tone pot's internal resistance trace between the two connected tabs (outer and middle). That resistance will have the taper of the pot, always. The "rest" of the resistance between the middle tab and the "open" tab is out of circuit (unterminated) and so entirely unused (unlike with a volume pot/voltage divider circuit, where all 3 tabs are in circuit). If you swapped tone pot connections from one outer tab to the opposite outer tab, the tone control would work backwards, as it would be seeing the other section of the resistance trace.

Wacker does make a curious point in his article, suggesting that there is a difference in noise interference potential for the tone circuit depending on whether the middle tab or outer tab is the one which is grounded. I have never heard that anywhere else. Wacker is usually on the money (but not always). In any case I'd like to see some direct evidence of that affect before being convinced. But the implication of this, if true, would be that it would always be preferable to ground the middle/wiper tone pot tab (for 50s/60s/modern wiring), and have the cap connected to the outer tab, even though it makes no electrical difference to the filtering function of the tone control.
https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/ ... a-tone-pot
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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Re: Capacitor Placement

Post by gila_crisis » Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:26 am

Normally on all my guitars I go with the 50s wiring: find is works better with humbuckers and provide a lot more sweet spots!
Plus it does a kind of treble bleed which is a very positive effect on the overall guitar sound.

As for my Jazzmaster, when I switched pickups I did rewire the volume/tone in the 50s style, but after a while I went back to the standard 60s wiring: with these JM single coils I love the 60s better, it has a better interaction, and I can control a better the brightness of the pickups (that infamous trick of turning just a little bit down the volume to cut some brightness is almost a game changer on the JM).

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Re: Capacitor Placement

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:01 am

timtam wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:22 am
Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:39 pm
Ok cool. Would there be any advantage/disadvantage to using the center tone pot lug vs the side lug? Would it feel any different, like taper-wise? Or is it just preference?
The tone control acts simply as a variable resistor (as opposed to the volume control which acts as a voltage divider). So all the resistance "effect" comes from the tone pot's internal resistance trace between the two connected tabs (outer and middle). That resistance will have the taper of the pot, always. The "rest" of the resistance between the middle tab and the "open" tab is out of circuit (unterminated) and so entirely unused (unlike with a volume pot/voltage divider circuit, where all 3 tabs are in circuit). If you swapped tone pot connections from one outer tab to the opposite outer tab, the tone control would work backwards, as it would be seeing the other section of the resistance trace.

Wacker does make a curious point in his article, suggesting that there is a difference in noise interference potential for the tone circuit depending on whether the middle tab or outer tab is the one which is grounded. I have never heard that anywhere else. Wacker is usually on the money (but not always). In any case I'd like to see some direct evidence of that affect before being convinced. But the implication of this, if true, would be that it would always be preferable to ground the middle/wiper tone pot tab (for 50s/60s/modern wiring), and have the cap connected to the outer tab, even though it makes no electrical difference to the filtering function of the tone control.
https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/ ... a-tone-pot
That IS interesting. I missed that little tidbit in the article. Since this information is going to be used in my pickup tester box, and not (yet) on a specific guitar, maybe I'll breadboard the two tone pot grounding styles to see if there's a difference in noise. If there is, that would be very interesting information. Thanks for all the help Tim!

gila_crisis wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:26 am
Normally on all my guitars I go with the 50s wiring: find is works better with humbuckers and provide a lot more sweet spots! Plus it does a kind of treble bleed which is a very positive effect on the overall guitar sound.

As for my Jazzmaster, when I switched pickups I did rewire the volume/tone in the 50s style, but after a while I went back to the standard 60s wiring: with these JM single coils I love the 60s better, it has a better interaction, and I can control a better the brightness of the pickups (that infamous trick of turning just a little bit down the volume to cut some brightness is almost a game changer on the JM).
Good to know! I like to experiment quite a bit, and that's part of the reason why I'm designing a pickup tester box in the first place: to try out all combinations of pot and capacitor values, and mods, before committing to any soldering, so I can see exactly what everything will sound like, and what I like best.
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http://www.offsetguitars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=104282&p=1438384#p1438384

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Re: Capacitor Placement

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:38 am

Tim, just thought of something...
timtam wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:22 am
If you swapped tone pot connections from one outer tab to the opposite outer tab, the tone control would work backwards, as it would be seeing the other section of the resistance trace.
Does this mean that "reverse taper pots" are bullshit? If I'm understanding what you're saying, as a lefty, if I wanted the pot to be on or off in one direction or the other, I could just swap the outer lugs. Or am I missing something else?
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Re: Capacitor Placement

Post by jvin248 » Wed Feb 03, 2021 5:35 am

.

Just going to add a caution ... if you meander down the 50s wiring styles you'll find weird interactions between volume and tone: turning the tone pot will change volume and turning the volume will change tone. 50s works great if you are a 'dime the tone pot' kind of player using only the volume pot but if you regularly use both it can be a mess. That's why the 'modern' wiring methods appeared and stayed. Best to test different values of a Treble Bleed circuit if you are having troubles when rolling back the volume.

.

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Re: Capacitor Placement

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Wed Feb 03, 2021 5:39 am

jvin248 wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 5:35 am
.

Just going to add a caution ... if you meander down the 50s wiring styles you'll find weird interactions between volume and tone: turning the tone pot will change volume and turning the volume will change tone. 50s works great if you are a 'dime the tone pot' kind of player using only the volume pot but if you regularly use both it can be a mess. That's why the 'modern' wiring methods appeared and stayed. Best to test different values of a Treble Bleed circuit if you are having troubles when rolling back the volume.

.
I've actually heard about that before. Since it will be a test box where I can try out all sorts of things, I'm adding a rotary switch for treble bleed types, as well as things like a Gibson Varitone and JM/Jag rhythm circuit too.
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Re: Capacitor Placement

Post by jorri » Wed Feb 03, 2021 6:37 am

Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:38 am
Tim, just thought of something...
timtam wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:22 am
If you swapped tone pot connections from one outer tab to the opposite outer tab, the tone control would work backwards, as it would be seeing the other section of the resistance trace.
Does this mean that "reverse taper pots" are bullshit? If I'm understanding what you're saying, as a lefty, if I wanted the pot to be on or off in one direction or the other, I could just swap the outer lugs. Or am I missing something else?
I think in that case, you'd have same results. Its just anti-clockwise would but turning up, so yes, kind of bullshit. I think most useful in concentric blend controls and stuff where the way its turned would matter.

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