Re: jazzmaster japan or usa?

[spaceghost]

ok subjective qualitative utilitarianism. whatever.

someone can get happiness out of listening to Paris Hilton.

i can get happiness out of saying that it sucks.

pretty sure that's the whole point of the thread.

edit: i just think some  things deserve more/less subjectivity. that said, we can probably agree that all jazzmasters are awesome.

[Yannic]

that said, we can probably agree that all jazzmasters are awesome.

Hear hear!

I've never played anything other then a CIJ  and I've only played two of those, both were awsome! Here in the netherlands, AVRI's appear to be scarce and very very expensieve ( 1700 euro's at the great german stores, where a CIJ does 700 euro  ).

[FireAarro]

When it comes to instruments I'll simplify and say the 2 most important qualities are feel and sound.  If money were no object and there were a room filled with vintage JM's and all other builds and every one on this forum could play and pick the best to take home, I would highly doubt there would be very many vintage JM's left in the room if any at all.  Next to go - AVRI.  It's not the mystique, it's not soley personal opinion, it's what feels and sounds best which is directly linked to the physical properties of the instrument. That *is* measureable from neck radius to pickup windings to the sound waves hitting our ears.

Feel and sound is definitely subjective, and a lot of it is to do with personal opinion. That's why people play different guitars and put different pickups in their guitars. Some people like A necks, B necks, whatever. Some people like Jazz Bass necks and some people like P Bass necks. Some people (I'm looking at you Thurston) rout their guitars out for humbuckers. Some people prefer Japan JM/Jag necks over AVRI ones. The physical properties are certainly measurable, but feel and sound are entirely subjective.

[starfish]

Taking "feel and sound" out of the context of my post, sure -  that can be true.  I'm not arguing "A" vs. "B" neck or even guitar brand choices.  We are in the narrow field of one or two models manufactured quite differently and with different tactile and audible results.  Those results are based on physical properties which like it or not conform to the laws of the physical universe.  Putting it back in context, the MIJ pickups just don't compare to vintage black bottoms nor to AVRI nor to Loller's.  But heck, if someone likes thin lifeless tone, who am I to say differently.    Now it's not because it says MIJ on it, it's because the components and craftsmanship are in variance from what is (nearly) universally accepted as better sounding, the quality of the magnets the windings, etc.  We could turn this into a philosophical discussion of the word 'better', but that really wasn't the point.  Is the sky blue?  (yawn).

I could go on and on with -  alder w/ nitro, etc. ad naseum.  But what remains true is that the properties of components are measureable and noticeable.  In context, so are feel and sound.

[mudhoney]

What about if someone plays a MIJ Jag thier whole life thinking it was an AVRI? Were they enjoying less happiness?

How can happiness NOT be subjective?

I would say that he/she would be even happier when a chance for playing a better guitar occures 

like music, guitar choice is very subjective, but also I think that on this forum we at least share the same passion about the shape of the guitar

[mynameisjonas]

Now it's not because it says MIJ on it, it's because the components and craftsmanship are in variance from what is (nearly) universally accepted as better sounding...

now hold on just a minute... you can say what you want about the hardware and electronics of the japanese guitars, but the craftsmanship is near perfect and extremely consistent, which is a lot more than what you can say about AVRIs. i've never played a CIJ that wasn't flawless (apart from the cheap hardware/electronics), but i have come across quite a few AVRIs that were real lemons. the ones that were good were really good, but i wouldn't say the craftsmanship was better than the CIJs. the things that make AVRIs more expensive are the hardware, electronics and finish. and those are the only things that set the two versions apart quality wise.

of course, this is only based on my personal experience with about 20-30 guitars played in shops, and in no way do i claim that this is the absolute objective truth.

[JazzBlaster]

Again I pose the question, what is more important? The gear or the music? I personaly prefer a modified Japanese Jazzmaster for live and a vintage model for studio work.

David

[Pumpkin]

The gear means absolutely nothing,less than nothing providing i can get the sounds i need out of it i couldn't careless.

As for the cost,although I'm poor that means nothing too because if i need something I'll make plans to get it,may take a long time but I'll eventually get it.

Music always!!!

[DB]

Jonas makes some good points.

The quality of the japanese product can't be beat, of course some of the components can be upgraded, but is this a product packaging decision?

My Jag Bass and Jag bari both arrived in perfect shape, no issues, for $699 USD.  On the other hand, my 2006 Bass VI CS has some issues, namely the rough edges on the fingerboard where the laquer meets the unfinished fretboard.  This might be acceptable for a $699 guitar, but for nearly $2300 I'd expect better quality control.  Yes it has great electronics, aged plastic parts, nice nitro finish, etc., but why didn't they finish the job properly?  Does anybody in the CS look at these guitars before they leave the shop?  I don't think so.  Left a really bad taste for me for the "custom shop", which I now feel is a euphemism for "how much can I charge for these?".  Not to mention that they won't really do custom or give you bad info (we won't do custom colors on Bass VI, then I see custom colors here on the board).  Bad customer service from US I think.

I'll go with Japan made Fenders any day.  They have blocks, binding, matching HS, Jag Bass, baritone, etc.  They respond to the marketplace, while Fender US just tries to figure out how to control supply and then price.  I'm not a nitro freak, in fact the poly stuff holds up way better, and I've never noticed that the sound is "choked", as is often the claim.  Let Fender Japan make the decisions, and we'd have cool stuff.

Sorry for the rant, perhaps just one too many glasses of wine tonight!

DB

[Pumpkin]

On a side note, there is absolutely no such thing as "BETTER"in any aspect of existence,its all personal opinion and that is all.

I generally agree with everything you said except this last bit, where I tend to strongly disagree.  This is more a personal mantra of mine  so forgive my relatively long wind and passioned rebuttal.  Please keep in mind I mean no personal attack here.  I see this type of statement in threads of all sorts where qualities are being debated.  I just disagree with the premise that opinion is an all leveling factor.  There is still science too and in the end you can measure physical characteristics in both sound and playability.  It reminds me a bit of the trend these days to tell all schoolchildren that there are no winners and losers, no A's and no F's.  No one keeping score or improving anywhere.  Only a big happy and global family.  It is noble for being utopian, but steps away a bit from reality and perhaps physics too. 

In the "no betters" standard a Robin Guthrie recording is no "better" than one by Paris Hilton.  A Collings is no better than an Esteban.  To the contrary, there are achievable, measurable standards and differences in quality in all fields from making music to building musical instruments.  Now thankfully we are at the top of the food chain as it were with highly-discriminating tastes for JM's and Jaguars.  But differences are still meansureable and usually visible to even the least trained eye, hand and ear.

When it comes to instruments I'll simplify and say the 2 most important qualities are feel and sound.  If money were no object and there were a room filled with vintage JM's and all other builds and every one on this forum could play and pick the best to take home, I would highly doubt there would be very many vintage JM's left in the room if any at all.  Next to go - AVRI.  It's not the mystique, it's not soley personal opinion, it's what feels and sounds best which is directly linked to the physical properties of the instrument. That *is* measureable from neck radius to pickup windings to the sound waves hitting our ears.

Sidenote:  Did I mention I feel strongly about this?  Anyway, don't take any of this personally.  I like a heated debate because from debate emerges knowledge and from knowledge emerges discrimination and so on until the real free market responds to the demands of the players like us who are spending their hard earned money on pretty expensive instruments, at any price point.  (See my CS Bass Vi rant.  Overall I'm happy but there's always room for measureable improvements.)

There is no such thing as better,you can argue it but there isnt.Only personal opinion and requirements.

If i say a bullet in the head is bad the suicidal guy will disagree,for him its better.

If i say CIJ are better (for me) you will obviously disagree but it doesn't make it so,it just an OPINION! Like mine,just an opinion.

And if you judge the workmanship,by which universal standards are you concluding better?  Your own?!?! but it doesn't make it so.

Despite that,an unbiased eye wouldn't spot anymore faults on a Fender out of japan than one out of Corona.

I got nothing against av except that i can get the same guitar cheaper and modify it (which i do to every guitar) to what i want and have better* pups and whatever else i want in it and still be way under a stock av price.

*my opinion,reached by observing and meeting my requirements.


From what I've heard from people (some members here too) who work in a fender dealer store CIJ guitars are very consistent in quality and its often an AV that gets sent back due to being a clunker that sounds like ass.

If consistent quality is what you value,y'all need to reassess your outlook on these guitars because simply put,the view you hold is not at all true!

USA made  =  street cred you can only get from a USA guitar,you call it what you like but its straight up bullshit stories that prevent CIJ getting the recognition they deserve!

Some people are so materialistic and stuck up it really is sad,but its also pathetic.
I'm not out to impress anyone so if fender start a factory in Iraq that makes great guitars I'll be buying Iraqi guitars.

A decal with CIJ ain't gonna prevent me judging guitars honestly,there all made on Earth so who gives a fuck!


This is not an attack either but I'm sick of people continuing to spread their bias asshole opinions that are not true,sure everyone is entitled to an opinion but when that opinion contains no substance and personal bias it would be best if they didn't say anything because the world has enough misinformation soaked brains in it as it is.

[DB]

I hear you Pumkin.  My current fav fretless bass is a hybrid I built, a Mexinesia Jazz Bass (MIM body, Indonesia ebanol neck, Squire parts).  It sings way better than the Jaco USA fretless I used to own. which cost about 4 times as much.

DB

[spacecadet]

I realize I'm late with this, but I gotta reply...

i don't know where you're finding Japanese Jag's for $3-400, but the price difference is not 800.

The price of a new AVRI is $1,400.  That's true everywhere I've seen, unless you get a burst, in which case it's $1,434.95.  I don't know where you paid $1,200 for a new AVRI.  I see them used for that price on Ebay, but I'm talking about buying new.

I paid a total of $701 for my CIJ JM, including shipping and with no tax on top of that.  If I'd bought an AVRI locally, it'd have been $1,400 *plus* tax, which in my neck of the woods is 8.625%, for a grand total of $1,520.75.  $1,520.75 - $700 = $825.75.  I actually underestimated the difference in price.  Sorry about the error.

If I'd ordered from Musician's Friend or whatever, I could have avoided tax and shipping (though legally I'm still supposed to pay the tax; the store just doesn't have to collect it).  But a guitar that expensive, I would have bought locally in case there were any problems.  I only mail-ordered the CIJ because I had to.  So for me, it's an $825 difference.  Even if I'd ordered, though, with no tax or shipping charge, that's still a $700 difference.  It's still double the price.  It still ends up costing less if I replace every single piece of hardware and electronics in the CIJ *and* buy the hard case.  But I have no need to do all that.

also, what makes the Japanese not reissues?

How do you "reissue" a guitar that was never available before?  Fender Japan/Tokai/FujiGen didn't make these guitars in the 1960's, and they were never available in the Japanese market.  These are totally different companies and totally different markets.  Fender Japan is not using the same parts, the same materials or the same construction processes as the vintage models, and they're selling these guitars to people who had not even heard of Fender in the 1950's or 60's.  Nowhere on Fender Japan's web site, on any Japanese retail site or anywhere in the Fender literature that comes with a CIJ model is the guitar called a "reissue", in either English or Japanese.  I don't know if the CIJ models that were briefly officially imported here were called reissues or not, but if they were, then it was Fender USA calling them that, not Fender Japan.

The AVRI line, though, is available in Japan and is referred to as "American Vintage 1962 Jazzmaster" (ditto for Jaguar).  CIJ's are only ever referred to as either JM66-88 (or JM66B-106) or just "Jazzmaster" - in Japanese too ("ジャズマスター" means Jazzmaster and it's the only word you ever see attached to these guitars).  The AVRI guitars are the ones people there buy if they want a new version of a vintage American guitar, just like here.  (Example:  http://ishibashi.co.jp/webshop/guitar/f ... a/62jm.htm as compared to the CIJ at http://ishibashi.co.jp/webshop/guitar/f ... jm6680.htm)

CIJ guitars may be based on a 66 model, but they can't be reissues even if Fender wanted them to be, and I don't even think it's the intent.  You can call it semantics, but it's the difference between being able to nitpick every little thing for its "accuracy" vs. just looking silly trying to do that.  Nobody cares about the accuracy of CIJ models because they're not claimed to be exact vintage copies; they're doing their own thing to some extent.  Maybe Fender USA cares, but only to the point that CIJ models are close enough to bear the JM/Jag name.  I'm not saying CIJ models are inaccurate, but we all know there are some differences.  The point is they really don't matter.

It would be like some American company trying to replicate a 1960's Japanese tea set or something, selling it in America and calling it a "reissue".  It just wouldn't make sense, and nobody here would be calling it a reissue, even those that knew the original.  Same thing.  The only people that call CIJ JM's and Jags reissues are people outside of Japan, and we're not the market.

[weijie]

I think its a 50-50 sorta thing. I know I'd go for a CIJ though! I like modding and putting things together.

[JazzBlaster]

There is no such thing as better,you can argue it but there isnt.Only personal opinion and requirements.

As per usual Pumkin and I see eye to eye on gear. I don't want to miss out on a new sound by saying "I wont play that". What some would see as draw backs I see as advantages. A well made guitar that needs new electronics (any fender made anywhere that cost under 1k) is right up my aley. There unfortunately isn't an off the shelf guitar that meets my needs. My MIJ jazzmaster has held up to my abuse and been everywhere with me for the past 13 years and that counts for alot.

David

[starfish]

This is not an attack either but I'm sick of people continuing to spread their bias asshole opinions that are not true,sure everyone is entitled to an opinion but when that opinion contains no substance and personal bias it would be best if they didn't say anything because the world has enough misinformation soaked brains in it as it is.

I thought long and hard about leaving this alone but this sure looks like a personal attack to me.  But that's fine if you feel you need to resort to this.  In the end, I've had every variety of manufacture except CIJ, as I noted with an exception - "perhaps CIJ improved."  No one will ever convince me that the MIJ guitars are on par quality wise with AVRI and with vintage, where it's not even a fair comparison really.  Of course we are listening with two different sets of ears and to each his own.  I would never pretend to be a wine connoisseur, but it is often stated that most people cannot tell the difference between a $12 bottle of wine and a $150 bottle of wine.  But in the end all thirsts are quenched and perhaps therein lies your point.