Another Mastery thread

[mackerelmint]

Sure, they may have had fixed saddles at the time, but centuries ago, there were gut frets that were tied around necks and would come loose. You didn't like your intonation? Well, move your frets around and figure it out. Sounds like a nightmare to me. That's why they were called "frets" in the first place, they were fretful and made musician fret over them. I made that part up, but it's true that frets used to tie around necks, which makes me wonder why they aren't called neckties instead.

It's nice that we have all kinds of options in our setup, and that a single bridge can adjust to accommodate different setups per the science. I'd say it's for our benefit that a mastery can adjust.

[timtam]

I've always wanted my electric guitars to have a loud and present acoustic sound to them, though. My belief is that poorly designed bridges inhibit the string's vibration to a degree, so that there is less for the pickup to "hear" since it hasn't been created in the first place.

I do not believe that the Mastery bridge makes a slab of wood vibrate more, but I do feel that it has less inhibition of the string's vibration that other bridges, and you can hear that acoustically, and the pickup hears it as well.

Yes, I think that's a reasonable assessment, although the acoustic aspect is more complicated (see below). A rigid bridge doesn't likely prevent the strings from vibrating at particular frequencies in the first place (as non-rigid bearings could), but any movable parts can be made to vibrate internally by string vibrations excited by the pick then reaching it; thus the string vibration energy that goes into vibrating those bridge parts is lost from the strings (so the pickups no longer see it). The Mastery with fewer and less vibrate-able parts is likely not excited to vibrate to the same extent as the original bridge. As such, less vibration energy would be lost from the strings. Frequency-specific absorptions from the strings have been shown for bridges with many parts/air gaps like strat bridges and TOMs (Zollner ch7 below), with some internal vibrations/losses being characteristic and some being idiosyncratic - sometimes one ABR-1 or strat saddle will vibrate/absorb at particular frequency and the next one tested won't (one of many reasons two such guitars can sound different that doesn't require the simplistic "it must be the wood"). When such bridges have been micro-clamped to stop them vibrating, the lost vibrations then remained in the strings and so that frequency re-appeared in the pickup output. But offset bridges have not been measured for that at all AFAIK, so we must draw principles from other examples. The string vibration physics are also affected by things like string break angle, downforce, friction, and residual string lengths (ie bridge to trem), some of which turns out to be more complex than expected (which probably explains why things like top-wrapping LPs is not always predictable).
https://www.gitec-forum-eng.de/2019/08/ ... s-on-line/

Of course there is no "good" or "bad" in any of this. While it might seem better, or at least more predictable, to have as much vibration energy retained in the strings as possible, what our ears end up preferring is entirely subjective. The sonic result from a bridge with more losses could sound "better".

As far as the acoustic sound is concerned, any element that affects the string vibrations will be reflected in both the acoustic sound and the amplified sound (assuming pickups/electronics/down stream processing transmit all vibration information from the strings, which of course not all do). The acoustic sound we hear is made up of sound waves direct from the strings and their reflection / attenuation by surfaces like the pickguard and top surface of the guitar. A strat pickguard has been shown by Zollner (ch7) to significantly attenuate some sound wave frequencies and reflect others (ie not seen by the pickups).

So it's quite easy to demonstrate decoupling of acoustic and amplified sound (another such experiment described in Zollner ref below). So while both start with the same 'input' - string vibrations - there are many factors like that mess with a direct correlation between the acoustic and electric sound. So all in all it's safest to not assume an electric guitar is going to sound good or bad amplified based on its acoustic sound.
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/su ... 1.348.6822

[andy_tchp]

That's why they were called "frets" in the first place, they were fretful and made musician fret over them.

I made that part up

That was disappointing.

[mackerelmint]

That's why they were called "frets" in the first place, they were fretful and made musician fret over them.

I made that part up

That was disappointing.

Well, I wasn't making up the part about catgut tied around the neck. I was just playing Calvin's dad making up the etymology.

[Meriphew]

These are all good points. The only used Fender offset RSD bridge that I could find (was on Reverb) looks like it sold for $500. Yikes!

I’ve got a couple Fender offsets with Mastery bridges in them. I really like the benefits that it added. Having said that, I’d love to see Fender make their offset RSD bridge available for purchase.

It'd be interesting to see if they ever industrialized that bridge. Upfront, it's one design of bridge I've no first hand experience with. As I understand it, they're largely hand-made, and a fixed radius. That means at least two distinct SKUs if they wanted to make it a aftermarket part. I'd imagine they'd have to find a way to streamline production too.

Being a fixed bridge they'll setup similar to a mastery (lower height, not necessarily the same amount of shims) so make of that what you will. I do wonder what the range of intonation is. Apparently you can tweak the RSD bridge, but looking at it I don't see how you're going to cover a wide range of tunings with it.

I'd also be curious to see how the brass holds up with repeated vibrato use. The brass barrels on my Tele are fine - a couple of tiny divots on certain strings, but it's also a fixed bridge. I wonder if the lower bridge and therefore somewhat reduced string pressure is enough to stop the strings cutting into the brass over a long period.

Unfortunately, I feel like there's a lot about that design that'll prevent it from being mass-produced for the time being.

[Meriphew]

I’m actually really impressed with the stock bridge on my LPB Marr Jaguar. It has the proper string spacing and works great - unlike the stock bridge on my KO Marr Jaguar (which was replaced with a Mastery).

[DeathJag]

I’d like to point out that the Mastery UFO tip by does fit in a standard fender trim arm.

[Larry Mal]

That's why they were called "frets" in the first place, they were fretful and made musician fret over them. I made that part up, but it's true that frets used to tie around necks, which makes me wonder why they aren't called neckties instead.

Pfft. First of all, everyone knows that "fret" is pronounced "freet" because the word was an Anglicization of the French "pomme frites" because they used to make frets from potatoes.

[adamrobertt]

I’d like to point out that the Mastery UFO tip by does fit in a standard fender trim arm.

Yup, I have them on both of mine.

[Veitchy]

These are all good points. The only used Fender offset RSD bridge that I could find (was on Reverb) looks like it sold for $500. Yikes!

I think I saw the same one you're talking about after I posted that comment yesterday.

I feel like their comparative scarcity (who's going to spec one, only to later take it off) and the fact that it's a Fender/CS factory unit drives the price up quite a bit.

That Reverb listing was good if only because I got a decent look at the underside of them and got my head around how they're meant to intonate. I may be wrong in my assessment that they have a limited range of intonation.

Also, this may just be me, but I think the way the shape flows left-to-right on the RSD offset bridge somewhat mirrors the shape of the late 50s/early 60s Jazzmaster headstock decal...

[mackerelmint]

That's why they were called "frets" in the first place, they were fretful and made musician fret over them. I made that part up, but it's true that frets used to tie around necks, which makes me wonder why they aren't called neckties instead.

Pfft. First of all, everyone knows that "fret" is pronounced "freet" because the word was an Anglicization of the French "pomme frites" because they used to make frets from potatoes.

In France, they still do.

[Larry Mal]

That Reverb listing was good if only because I got a decent look at the underside of them and got my head around how they're meant to intonate. I may be wrong in my assessment that they have a limited range of intonation.

I always like to remind people, and I'm not singling you out for criticism here, but you don't need any "range of intonation". Acoustic guitars don't have it. Violins don't have it. Banjos don't have it.

If you use a predictable gauge of string, which you do, and the instrument is constructed with enough care, a fixed and compensated bridge with no ability to adjust whatsoever is going to give great intonation.

And electric guitars had fixed bridges for a period of time as well, it's no accident that you really start seeing the six saddle adjustable bridges at the same time that the electric guitar became a mass produced, factory made instrument. They wanted to get the guitars out the door, the demand was incredible, there was tons of money to be made and they had no idea how long it would last.

Remember the Beatles weren't signed because it was felt that "guitar music was on its way out" or whatever... the electric guitar makers had a product that was white hot but who knows for how long. They needed something that could be constructed quickly and with very loose tolerances, and the six saddle adjustable bridge gave them a lot of room for slop.

I mean, shit, Gibson was even trying to persuade people that the Tune-O-Matic bridge was good on acoustics for a while there.

But none of this was for the customer's benefit.

[adamrobertt]

That Reverb listing was good if only because I got a decent look at the underside of them and got my head around how they're meant to intonate. I may be wrong in my assessment that they have a limited range of intonation.

And electric guitars had fixed bridges for a period of time as well, it's no accident that you really start seeing the six saddle adjustable bridges at the same time that the electric guitar became a mass produced, factory made instrument. They wanted to get the guitars out the door, the demand was incredible, there was tons of money to be made and they had no idea how long it would last.

Remember the Beatles weren't signed because it was felt that "guitar music was on its way out" or whatever... the electric guitar makers had a product that was white hot but who knows for how long. They needed something that could be constructed quickly and with very loose tolerances, and the six saddle adjustable bridge gave them a lot of room for slop.

I mean, shit, Gibson was even trying to persuade people that the Tune-O-Matic bridge was good on acoustics for a while there.

But none of this was for the customer's benefit.

I've heard you say this before, and it's an intriguing idea... but do you have anything to back these claims up? Citation_needed as they say...

Like recently someone was trying to tell me that the offset vibrato is "mechanically identical" to a Bigsby and that Leo only made it "more complicated" so that he didn't have to pay Bigsby any money. I was like... dude you literally just made that up...

But he doubled down anyway.

[Larry Mal]

I'll see what I can find, but I made a few claims there, I suppose you are looking for some backup to my claim that Gibson and such used the adjustable bridge to enable sloppy tolerance?

Most of the other stuff seems like common knowledge.

[adamrobertt]

I'll see what I can find, but I made a few claims there, I suppose you are looking for some backup to my claim that Gibson and such used the adjustable bridge to enable sloppy tolerance?

Most of the other stuff seems like common knowledge.

Yes