Help me understand what good and bad fretwork is like

[amv]

I own Squiers, MIM Fenders and American Fenders. That covers a pretty good range of quality and specs. And I've been playing guitar for a number of years now, so in a general sense I'm no rookie. But to this day, I still don't really understand the difference between good and bad frets. My original Yamaha acoustic has some pretty well ground fret grooves that I should probably deal with sooner or later, so I understand fret wear of that sort. But when people talk about the quality of the fret work on a new guitar, what exactly does it mean to be good or bad?

From my Affinity Squiers to my American-made Fenders, I've never had any particular issue with the frets. They don't visually look any different, nor does my ability to play feel noticeably hampered or aided by the frets on any particular guitar.

If anyone can help, I'd love to see some photos of good vs. bad fret work on a new guitar, descriptions of what it looks/feels like, or the kinds of playing issues that bad frets can produce (or that good frets can help with). Anything that could clarify what this means exactly.

This has been on my mind for a while and I feel like I'm missing something obvious. Thanks!

[rhythmjones]

I'm no seasoned expert, but I know a thing or two:

Frets should be leveled, a high fret could mean anything from not being able to lower action enough, to not being able to play above a certain fret (this gets into the territory of neck-humps, which is a different cause, but the same symptoms.) A fret rocker is the tool used to determine level frets. If a fret is high, lower it 'til its level, then polish it good.

Bend the notes, all the way to minor 3rds on every fret on every string. They should be smooth and not fret-out. (This can also be a symptom of bad neck relief and saddle action, too)

The thing that most guitarists will notice about frets is their EDGES. "Rolled fret edges" is a marketing term used on high-end guitars. For a few bones, you can have your whole fingerboard "rolled" by a competent tech/luthier, even on an Epiphone/Squier. It's basically taking the harsh corners off the edges of the frets where the lines converge and form points. It makes the frets feel smooth and buttery. Too much "rolling" though and your strings are falling off the edge of the fingerboard, to me a bigger problem than "feeling" rough points.

Then there's fret sprout, which has more to do with humidity and fingerboard moisture, but will cause your fingers to be cut/scraped as moving up and down the fingerboard. This can be remedied by filing the OUTSIDE edges of the frets. (where they stick out from the shrunken board). When the humidity returns, they'll get sucked back into the fingerboard as it re-expands. When it gets dry again, they'll still be filed down and should not pop back out when the fingerboard invariably shrinks again. Any guitar, from a $89 Bullet Strat to an $8900 Custom Shop job can and will experience fret-sprout. Neck binding can help cover the symptoms of fret-sprout, but just makes you less likely to ever fix the real problem.

IMHO most modern guitars have decent fret jobs at almost all price points. But I'm not much of a nit-picker.

Hope this ramble was at least a little helpful.

[triviani]

It's a good question, and I'm sure there is plenty of documented proof of it. But as soon as you spend some time on guitar forums you start to hear the "dress and crown " mantra, and it always gives me the impression of being more an internet hobbyist thing than a real problem. Coming from the luthier -the one who knows- down to your pal Fred74 and his tool bench on his backyard.

In real life, I have never heard something like: "man, this frets need some crowning", buy I guess I don't know that many pro-guitar techs. I'm sure some of the luthiers here can provide more insight on it!

[gutter rock]

I am really glad someone has brought this up. I have had all manner of guitars from the lowliest to the high end and even the much ballyhooed vintage. I have never noticed anything about fret work on any of them. Either it is over exaggerated Internet myth or I am a total hack on guitar. I also don't really think that fretboard radius is as a big a deal as everyone here makes it. I switch between modern and vintage without a hiccup. I also don't have an issue with scale length, going from jazzmaster to jaguar poses no problems for me. I probably prefer modern medium jumbo frets, but not because it has anything to do with how I play a guitar, just nice to have more fret so there is more material to work with when issues arise. I guess I am glad I don't notice these things too much.

[spindizzy]

I also don't really think that fretboard radius is as a big a deal as everyone here makes it. I switch between modern and vintage without a hiccup. I also don't have an issue with scale length, going from jazzmaster to jaguar poses no problems for me.

The fretboard radius thing is more of an issue if, like me, you do a lot of bending greater than a whole tone up the neck. Do it on a Les Paul with a 12" radius and it's not a problem with a low action, do it on a Jazzmaster with a 7.25" radius and welcome to fret-out city. I played with the action for ages until it was set right on my Jazzmaster, the Mastery helped no end. Getting it low enough but with no fret buzz and no fretting out is a challenge. I've never noticed the smaller radius helping me with chords either so I like flatter decks. My Jazzy's close to perfect now though.

And no, I've also never felt my frets were unduly rough. They tend to wear pretty evenly too.

[andy_tchp]

High/low frets are most certainly a 'real problem', a prime cause of fret buzz and can make the instrument a chore to play.

it always gives me the impression of being more an internet hobbyist thing than a real problem. Coming from the luthier -the one who knows- down to your pal Fred74 and his tool bench on his backyard.

Er, what? Luthiers do a fret level+crown as part of the build process before handing over the guitar. Unfortunately some mass-produced guitars don't receive the same level of attention.

Ron Kirn said on one of his fret levelling tutorial it's "the single best "mod" you can do to improve your tele, or any guitar for that matter".

In real life, I have never heard something like: "man, this frets need some crowning"

Indeed, as it would be extremely unlikely that anyone (tech or otherwise) would do only half the job and level the fret tops flat without re-crowning them afterwards.

[triviani]

High/low frets are most certainly a 'real problem', a prime cause of fret buzz and can make the instrument a chore to play.

it always gives me the impression of being more an internet hobbyist thing than a real problem. Coming from the luthier -the one who knows- down to your pal Fred74 and his tool bench on his backyard.

Er, what? Luthiers do a fret level+crown as part of the build process before handing over the guitar. Unfortunately some mass-produced guitars don't receive the same level of attention.

Ron Kirn said on one of his fret levelling tutorial it's "the single best "mod" you can do to improve your tele, or any guitar for that matter".

In real life, I have never heard something like: "man, this frets need some crowning"

Indeed, as it would be extremely unlikely that anyone (tech or otherwise) would do only half the job and level the fret tops flat without re-crowning them afterwards.

Yes, I don't deny that a real luthier will know how to treat the frets to have a nice playable guitar -A $2500 Kirn tele better be smooth as a baby butt-.

Honestly, I have never noticed that issue on guitars, apart from the normal wear and age of the frets.

[morganp]

Any time someone posts "Help! My action is good but the notes choke out after this one spot!" Is talking about bad fretwork, or else they don't know what good action is. How many of those threads do we read?

[morganp]

I guess I should answer part of the OP, since we seem to have missed the "symptoms" portion:

"Bad" fretwork is characterized by the fret heights being uneven, either due to the frets being improperly seated (not down in the slot all the way) or not being leveled once installed. You'll notice this unevenness as buzzing, a sitar-like hum, rattle, or choking out when fretting or bending notes (as rhythmjones mentioned). Some spots on the neck will be fine, but you fret a particular spot and you hear a buzz, a choked sound, or sometimes just a lack of sustain.

What's happening here is that there is one fret that's taller than the others; when you fret the string, you intend the string to only contact the fret you're fretting and the bridge saddle, but as the string vibrates back and forth, the low point in that movement contacts the fret (usually one or two up the neck from the one you're fretting) that's taller than the others. If you fret a note higher up the neck, frequently the buzz or dead spot will go away because you've gone past (or are at) the taller fret.

This is cured by filing all the frets level, and rounding ("crowning") the tops of them so that they are round and smooth again, so the string can exit the fret cleanly. Flat tops on frets can create a little sitar buzz too. The string should leave a contact area at a point, not a plane; think of a tuneomatic saddle, how the string just contacts it at one point: that's an extreme example, but illustrates how there's nothing for the string to rattle against at that end.

Many of today's cheaper guitars actually leave the factory with pretty decent fretwork, so I'm not surprised you've had good luck with it. Loads of old student guitars, as well as many modern ones, leave the factory with frets at uneven heights. If they're not put in the fret slots well, they may come loose or even move if pressed on like a tiny diving board, or else they're installed and not evened out, which is very common.

Of course, if you play with really high action, you won't much notice the differing height of the frets, because the high action will clear the high spots regardless. But good, level frets allow you to get lower action without buzzing.

Fret ends are a different matter, and were covered by rhythmjones earlier. Most luthiers will try to round the edges some to make them more comfortable.

Sometimes you can just sight down a neck and tilt it as you look (angled lighting helps) and see some frets that are a little proud. Potential issues.

[andy_tchp]

Yes, I don't deny that a real luthier will know how to treat the frets to have a nice playable guitar -A $2500 Kirn tele better be smooth as a baby butt-.

Yes, it will be, because he'll level and crown the frets before delivering it, something you previously implied was nonsense promoted by 'internet hobbyists' in their backyard rather than something that addresses a 'real problem'...

Morganp's writeup of the whys and hows is a good one.

Any time someone posts "Help! My action is good but the notes choke out after this one spot!" Is talking about bad fretwork, or else they don't know what good action is. How many of those threads do we read?

A fairly steady stream of them


The nice part is, you can get the $250 Squier's fretwork to feel just as good as the $2.5K custom guitar with some basic inexpensive tools, patience and mechanical understanding of what you're doing. It's not rocket science or some kind of black art that requires 20+ years of luthiery skills to undertake.

[Mad-Mike]

Lately I've been going around my collection and working on leveling the frets (especially the inexpensive stuff - ie. Crate/Mahar/Guyatone/Memphis/Harmony/Hondo). I just use masking tape, a black smelly marker, and a really fine grit sanding block, and a straight edge, and my own fingers/ears to tell if things are going that way. Got a Memphis strat as a wedding gift last year, needed a little fret leveling, a couple passes with a 3M Sanding block with 700 grit and a smelly old metal bodied marker and it feels very close if not at the standards of my Fenders now. Took me awhile at such high grit but everything looked pretty well polished when I was done.

Typically for the edges I use the same file I use to sharpen my lawn mower blades with, then some needle files of much higher grit to polish things out and round over the edges.

It takes a lot of time, but on some of the cheaper guitars, it's rather well worth it.

[Despot]

So I think pretty much most things have been covered above ... frets being of an uneven height are the biggest problem, but even having the frets polished makes a big difference if you're inclined to be a bender of notes (I'm not to be fair).

The other thing that you'll see being discussed is 'fall off' ... this is basically where the frets higher up the neck have been taken down to a lower height than those closer to the nut. If you think about it, the 12th fret is the middle of the 'wave' of your string vibration ... which means that around the 12th fret the string vibration is most pronounced, and so the string needs more space to move. Also, the higher up the neck you fret the guitar, the less 'room' the string will have to vibrate above the fretboard and the closer the most pronounced part of the vibration of the string (the 'amplitude of your wave' if you will) will be to the fret board and higher frets.

A good fret job will allow for this and reduce the height of the upper frets marginally to take account of this. This will lead to you being able to lower the action quite a bit (if that's your thing) without 'choking' or having dead spots on the upper frets (where the string vibration hits on a fret that's too high).

The nicest playing of my guitars is the '65 LPB Jag, which had a full re-fret before I bought it this year. The guy who did the fret job did a fantastic fret job, and the 'fall off' he applied to the upper frets meant that despite having pretty low action (and a short scale) the Jaguar frets cleanly and evenly all over the board.

[Despot]

So I think pretty much most things have been covered above ... frets being of an uneven height are the biggest problem, but even having the frets polished makes a big difference if you're inclined to be a bender of notes (I'm not to be fair).

The other thing that you'll see being discussed is 'fall off' ... this is basically where the frets higher up the neck have been taken down to a lower height than those closer to the nut. If you think about it, the 12th fret is the middle of the 'wave' of your string vibration (when playing an open string) ... which means that around the 12th fret the string vibration is most pronounced, and so the string needs more space to move. Also, the higher up the neck you fret the guitar, the less 'room' the string will have to vibrate above the fretboard and the closer the most pronounced part of the vibration of the string (the 'amplitude of your wave' if you will) will be to the fret board and higher frets.

A good fret job will allow for this and reduce the height of the upper frets marginally to take account of this. This will lead to you being able to lower the action quite a bit (if that's your thing) without 'choking' or having dead spots on the upper frets (where the string vibration hits on a fret that's too high).

The nicest playing of my guitars is the '65 LPB Jag, which had a full re-fret before I bought it this year. The guy who did the fret job did a fantastic fret job, and the 'fall off' he applied to the upper frets meant that despite having pretty low action (and a short scale) the Jaguar frets cleanly and evenly all over the board.

[zip73]

I also don't really think that fretboard radius is as a big a deal as everyone here makes it. I switch between modern and vintage without a hiccup. I also don't have an issue with scale length, going from jazzmaster to jaguar poses no problems for me.

The fretboard radius thing is more of an issue if, like me, you do a lot of bending greater than a whole tone up the neck. Do it on a Les Paul with a 12" radius and it's not a problem with a low action, do it on a Jazzmaster with a 7.25" radius and welcome to fret-out city. I played with the action for ages until it was set right on my Jazzmaster, the Mastery helped no end. Getting it low enough but with no fret buzz and no fretting out is a challenge. I've never noticed the smaller radius helping me with chords either so I like flatter decks. My Jazzy's close to perfect now though.

And no, I've also never felt my frets were unduly rough. They tend to wear pretty evenly too.

[zip73]

^^^
The radius answer is a compound fretboard. Have a Warmoth 10-16 on one of my AVRI Jags. Plays Great and yah Mastery's help alot too!