Jaguar Tone Pot results in volume drop?

[cyberpunk409]

I'm going crazy reading pages and pages of info on the internet, you guys are my last hope!

All questions in this thread relate to the LEAD CIRCUIT, the rhythm circuit functions perfectly well.

I have a Fender Jaguar. I recently had the "Tone Shaper Wiring Kit" installed:
https://toneshapers.com/products/tonesh ... der-jaguar

The tech installed the additional treble bleed (to the volume pot). The treble bleed system works as I would expect it to work.

The tone pot on the lead circuit now cuts volume drastically when it's dialled down.

I have literally spent the past two hours reading up on at least 20-30 people complaining about the same issue on various forums, only to have other people say there must be a short, incorrect wiring, etc etc etc

Surely this is common if I have found so many other people writing about it? Makes me think it can't be a wiring issue, but something inherent to the Jaguar design?

Problem is, I can't remember if the tone pot behaved this way BEFORE my tech rewired it... You see, I only had the guitar for a month before I sent it off for rewiring, pickup replacement, stainless steel refret, etc. And he had it for 5 weeks, so I've been longer without it than with it.

So all you Jaguar owners, please tell me how much of a volume drop you experience with the lead circuit engaged, the volume pot on 10 and the tone pot set to, let's say "5" (midway). I'm losing about half the volume with these setting (compared to volume at 10 and tone at 10).

[alexpigment]

It sounds like the Jaguar might have been wired with "50s wiring" to minimize the tone loss when turning down the volume. When you put in a treble bleed, you need to go back to modern wiring, since you've now gotten rid of the tone loss issue on the volume pot. If you have a picture of the bottom of the lead vol/tone control plate, we can see if this is the case and help you wire it differently.

If it helps, I've included a diagram below showing the differences. It doesn't really matter if there's a cap going directly from the volume to the tone or not, it's really just about which lugs are going from the each pot to the other:

[cyberpunk409]

It sounds like the Jaguar might have been wired with "50s wiring" to minimize the tone loss when turning down the volume. When you put in a treble bleed, you need to go back to modern wiring, since you've now gotten rid of the tone loss issue on the volume pot. If you have a picture of the bottom of the lead vol/tone control plate, we can see if this is the case and help you wire it differently.

If it helps, I've included a diagram below showing the differences. It doesn't really matter if there's a cap going directly from the volume to the tone or not, it's really just about which lugs are going from the each pot to the other:

Thanks for the reply... There's no cap going directly from the tone pot to the volume pot. The treble bleed is a capacitor and resistor in parallel across two lugs of the volume pot. Similar to this:

Note: not my guitar

The rest of the guitar is wired like this: https://www.fmicassets.com/Damroot/Orig ... A_SISD.pdf
The capacitor on the tone pot is soldered/connected to the empty lug on the tone pot, not sure why the wiring diagram left this out

[cyberpunk409]

It doesn't really matter if there's a cap going directly from the volume to the tone or not, it's really just about which lugs are going from the each pot to the other:

So my wiring, if it doesn't matter if there's a cap connecting the two pots directly, is the same as the "modern" wiring you have shown

[alexpigment]

I just tested my own Jaguar with 1meg pots and didn't really notice anything that I would call a drop in volume (although I suppose you could argue that the drop in highs creates a drop in *perceived* volume). On the other hand, a) we probably don't have the exact same pots, and b) my Jaguar is probably wired a bit differently than yours.

Anyway, without pics of your actual control panel to see if anything looks awry, I'll just have to take your word for it and say good luck!

[cyberpunk409]

I just tested my own Jaguar with 1meg pots and didn't really notice anything that I would call a drop in volume (although I suppose you could argue that the drop in highs creates a drop in *perceived* volume). On the other hand, a) we probably don't have the exact same pots, and b) my Jaguar is probably wired a bit differently than yours.

Anyway, without pics of your actual control panel to see if anything looks awry, I'll just have to take your word for it and say good luck!

I'll take some pictures later today, thanks

[alexpigment]

Sure thing. Also, one other thing to ask: does this problem occur with both positions on the strangle switch (i.e. the switch just below the two pickup on/off switches)?

Don't worry about the pictures if it only happens on one of the strangle switch settings.

[cyberpunk409]

Sure thing. Also, one other thing to ask: does this problem occur with both positions on the strangle switch (i.e. the switch just below the two pickup on/off switches)?

Don't worry about the pictures if it only happens on one of the strangle switch settings.

Happens on both settings with the strangle switch.

However... Turns out when the amp (Marshall SV20) is at decent volume, the volume drop isn't as noticeable with the tone pot. When I originally wrote up this thread, I only had a chance to play the amp at a notch above 1 on the amp's volume (cos of my kid and wife, they're tone killers hehe).

Despite it not being as bad as originally thought, the tone knob acts like a tone knob from 10 to 7, and then pretty much like a volume knob below 7.

With the tone knob dialled all the way down on the Jaguar, there's not much tone OR volume at all.

So given this revelation, is my guitar behaving normally? I didn't get a chance to take it apart for photos yet...

[alexpigment]

However... Turns out when the amp (Marshall SV20) is at decent volume, the volume drop isn't as noticeable with the tone pot. When I originally wrote up this thread, I only had a chance to play the amp at a notch above 1 on the amp's volume (cos of my kid and wife, they're tone killers hehe).

So what's likely happening there is that turning up the amp is introducing gain. That's going to mask any changes in volume, and you'll instead hear changes in the amount of gain.

So given this revelation, is my guitar behaving normally? I didn't get a chance to take it apart for photos yet.

There is a way to solve this, but I'm a tinkerer (with lots of parts lying around) and I would be tinkering until I solved it. It's a bit harder to second-hand tinker over the internet The reason I asked about the strangle switch is that it's a high pass filter, and your tone knob is a low pass filter. So if you have the strangle switch on, and you turn your tone knob down, you're basically only letting through some frequencies in the middle, and you would definitely hear a significant change in volume. Conversely, if your strangle switch is working (i.e. you hear it cut bass frequencies when on), but you still have the problem when it's off, then my suspicion is irrelevant.

Assuming the wiring is 'correct' according to the diagrams and everything is technically functioning as it should, if I were in your shoes I would be doing experiments like desoldering the resistor on the tone pot, changing the cap values on the tone pot, swapping out pots (e.g. audio to linear or vice versa; going down to 250k or 500k, etc), etc. Somewhere along the process, I would think that the tone pot should start behaving properly. However, I understand that many people don't just mess around with guitar wiring as much or don't know what kinds of things could affect the behavior of a tone knob's range/sweep. And there are also people that understand the basics of wiring on guitars, but the complexity of something like a Jaguar is baffling (and honestly, it *is* a weird guitar in that respect).

[cyberpunk409]

However... Turns out when the amp (Marshall SV20) is at decent volume, the volume drop isn't as noticeable with the tone pot. When I originally wrote up this thread, I only had a chance to play the amp at a notch above 1 on the amp's volume (cos of my kid and wife, they're tone killers hehe).

So what's likely happening there is that turning up the amp is introducing gain. That's going to mask any changes in volume, and you'll instead hear changes in the amount of gain.

So given this revelation, is my guitar behaving normally? I didn't get a chance to take it apart for photos yet.

And there are also people that understand the basics of wiring on guitars, but the complexity of something like a Jaguar is baffling (and honestly, it *is* a weird guitar in that respect).

On this point... I actually wired up my Les Paul with "Jimmy Page" wiring about 15 years ago, all by myself. That's FOUR push/pull pots with almost unlimited combinations, sort of.....

Yet this Jaguar baffles me

[cyberpunk409]

I just tested my own Jaguar with 1meg pots and didn't really notice anything that I would call a drop in volume (although I suppose you could argue that the drop in highs creates a drop in *perceived* volume). On the other hand, a) we probably don't have the exact same pots, and b) my Jaguar is probably wired a bit differently than yours.

Anyway, without pics of your actual control panel to see if anything looks awry, I'll just have to take your word for it and say good luck!

Although it looks like this lug is not grounded, it indeed is...


Visible in this picture:

... And tested with a multimeter in continuity mode.

Everything seems ok. The capacitor on the tone pot tested as 10nf (0.01 microfarad). The resistor on the tone pot is hard to measure because it is dependant on the tone knob setting, but seems ok.

If anyone can help, I would be so appreciative!! The tone knob really does act like a secondary volume pot on my guitar

[timtam]

Are the bare twisted wires on the treble bleed completely clear of the grounded pot body ? I would always put heatshrink on those for additional insurance.

[cyberpunk409]

Are the bare twisted wires on the treble bleed completely clear of the grounded pot body ? I would always put heatshrink on those for additional insurance.

Gosh darn it, I didn't check that. But I'm pretty sure if that were the case, then the volume pot wouldn't work. I don't think you can just ground one of those two lugs and have a functional volume pot.

[cyberpunk409]

Zoomed in pictures of the "56k resistor"show this:




But a 56k resistor SHOULD look like this:


Could this be the problem...?

And if so, why the hell was a different value resistor supplied with the kit when the description outlines;

The following items are included with the kit:

(1) Capacitor, .003µF disk (3300pf)
(2) Capacitor, .01µF disk
(1) Jack, Switchcraft 1/4" Mono
(2) Pot, CTS 1M Audio (1/4" Bushing Length)
(1) Pot, CTS 1M Linear, Mini
(1) Pot, CTS 50k Linear, Mini
(1) Resistor, 56k
(4) Slide Switch, Switchcraft, Black
(1) Treble Bleed Kit for Single-Coils

[alexpigment]

If I'm seeing the colors correctly - yellow, blue, yellow, gold - then that's a 460k resistor. I would try desoldering that first and seeing if it helps. I believe the resistor is there to help with the strangle switch, but it also affects the tone pot when the strangle switch is off.