Re: Help me pick a new amp, please!

Sauerkraut · Post by **Sauerkraut** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:45 pm

Maggieo wrote: How about a Fender Bassman? Isn't that what the first Marshalls were based on?

hm, I guess he could ask the guy if he can some sort of Twin Reverb-Bassman hybrid. If it works out it should be an awesome amp.

darkstriker · Post by **darkstriker** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:43 am

I was looking on ebay and found out that the Silverface Twin Reverbs fall into my price range. Can anyone explain to me the differences between the different TR versions? And how to easily identify each of them?

Sauerkraut · Post by **Sauerkraut** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:43 am

darkstriker wrote: I was looking on ebay and found out that the Silverface Twin Reverbs fall into my price range. Can anyone explain to me the differences between the different TR versions? And how to easily identify each of them?

well, first there are the Blackface pre-CBS Twins, by many believed to be the best Twins ever made, but they're very expensive (and I've heard a lot of people say their favourite amp was actually a silverface, even when they owned a blackface). And there are the silverface Twins, made during the CBS period; the oldest ones are regarded as the best (probably because they're most like the blackface Twins). During the 70's a master-volume knob was added for distortion and they tried to make them louder (in respons to Marshall's succes I guess), unfortunately the distortion sounds like crap and it's not really what people buy Twins for anyway, so the modifications where a little silly (imo). But; the late 70's twins (with all the modifications) are cheaper than other silverfaces, which are already quite affordable, so you can find them at very reasonable prices. The mastervolume isn't much of a problem either, as you can just turn it to 10 and forget about it and you've got a superclean sound (use the channel's volume instead).

I hope someone can fill me in on the differences in the circuitry, I have no idea what was changed and how much of a difference it makes.

I have a '79 Twin and I'm very satisfied; it's got a nice warm sound, great reverb and tremolo and it's very good with pedals, couldn't ask for more.

you can recognize the different models by spotting the mastervolume on the far right of the control panel or looking at the 'Fender'-logo, the earlier ones have a line under it, the later ones don't. If you're going to check out secondhand Twins make sure you have a good look inside and ask questions regarding its authenticity, because people modded the hell out of these amps in the 80's. I'd try to get one from the late 60's/early 70's, but the later ones are worth checking out aswell.

Post by **mezcalhead** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:59 am

Good stuff .. I think the master volume for Twins came in after '72.

A couple of other clues - there's a "drip-edge" aluminium frame around the speaker grill until '69 only, and the metal Fender logo loses its tail after '74.

Sauerkraut wrote: (and I've heard a lot of people say their favourite amp was actually a silverface, even when they owned a blackface).

Good point .. I have two Vibrolux Reverbs, a blackface and a silverface, and I wouldn't say I prefer either, they're just slightly different flavours .. the BF is warmer/janglier and the SF more hi-fi/surfy.

I don't really know why anyone buys a new Fender amp if there is a similar silverface available .. usually the prices are comparable and the silverface is likely to be better built, more reliable if serviced properly and sound better too. Just my opinion/experience.

Sauerkraut · Post by **Sauerkraut** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:10 am

mezcalhead wrote: I don't really know why anyone buys a new Fender amp if there is a similar silverface available .. usually the prices are comparable and the silverface is likely to be better built, more reliable if serviced properly and sound better too. Just my opinion/experience.

I don't get that either, I bought my '79 Twin for 750 euro's (that may be quite expensive in the US, but it's a good price in Europe), and a new one would have cost me about 250-350 more.

The silverface amp is actually easier to repair for the technician I know, the man really hates those printed boards

. Another argument to buy one (for some) is that however late in the 70's they were made, all silverface amps were hand-wired amps.

darkstriker · Post by **darkstriker** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:09 am

So if I get me a late 70s silverface twin, it would be a good choice for a large-headroom, sparkling sound and good low end? I read somewhere that it can be easily modded into a 60's blackface amp. If it's good with pedal distortion, that would make it almost the perfect choice.

The idea of mixing a Twin and a Bassman seemed nice too. Maybe each circuit into a separated channel and have a pot to mix one into the other?

Sauerkraut · Post by **Sauerkraut** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:40 am

darkstriker wrote: So if I get me a late 70s silverface twin, it would be a good choice for a large-headroom, sparkling sound and good low end? I read somewhere that it can be easily modded into a 60's blackface amp. If it's good with pedal distortion, that would make it almost the perfect choice.

The idea of mixing a Twin and a Bassman seemed nice too. Maybe each circuit into a separated channel and have a pot to mix one into the other?

late 70s twins cannot easily be blackfaced, I'm not sure if it's possible at all, I think all pre-ultralinear models (ultralinear models are the latest 70's Twins) can be though. If you want to be safe get a non-mastervolume Twin.

Felix · Post by **Felix** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:41 am

Yes, a Twin Reverb will have plenty of volume and low end. I find that if you don't use the bright switch, it offers a little more freedom with the tone controls. I do that with my lux and my vibroverb. The low end goes nicely with a JM.

Just as a quick note, if you do buy a silverface there are two models. If you buy the master volume model, you'll have more to adjust when setting your tone. I prefer not having that option--a twin should be simple.
You can always buy an early silverface twin for about $800 used.

Sauerkraut · Post by **Sauerkraut** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:39 am

Felix wrote: If you buy the master volume model, you'll have more to adjust when setting your tone. I prefer not having that option--a twin should be simple.

nah, it's ok, just put the master volume on 10 and it's as clean as it can be.

mjet · Post by **mjet** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:11 am

Here is some info on the differences between Blackface and Silverface Fenders

http://www.schematicheaven.com/mods/silver2blackmod.htm

Starting in 1968, Fender began the move into the Silverface Era under CBS owned Fender. "Improvements" were made that were supposed to make the Blackface Era amps Cleaner and Louder. It's generally accepted that these changes tonally degraded the Blackface designs. This lead to many requests for Blackface Conversion Mods.

There's good news and bad news for people who want to convert their silverface amps. The good news is that if you have an early silverface (68 to 76), you'll be able to regain much of the Blackface tone. It won't be exactly like a blackface due to things that can't be changed like wiring composition and lead dress. But it will greatly improve the tone of your amp.

The bad news is that, (generally speaking), if your amp was made after 76, the blackface conversion will do little to help your amp. This is when Fender started using more powerful transformers to increase their amp's volumes. To even begin to change this type of amp you'd need to replace the transformers which really isn't worth the expense.

The Parasitic Supressor Caps:

1. Remove the .002uf (or sometimes 1200pf) capacitors from the grids of the power tubes (pin 5). This gives you back the high end sparkle of the blackface era amps.

The Phase Inverter Differences:

2. Change the .001 Coupling Cap increased from back to the blackface era value .01 cap. This "redefines" the bass response that became overbearing during the silverface era.

3. Change the 330k Cathode Resistors on the grids of the Phase Inverter back to 1 meg. This lowers gain to the blackface era spec.

4. Change the 47k Plate Load Resistors back to either 82k or 100k. This also lowers gain to the blackface era spec.

The Reverb Differences: (*Note - Many "Prefer" Silverface Era Reverb)

5. Change the Reverb Driver (1.5k, 820, or 680) ohm unbypassed resistors back to the blackface era spec 2.2k resistors bypassed with a 25uf-25v electrolytic cap.

6. Remove the Reverb Driver Plate to Cathode Caps.

7. Remove the Cap to ground after the Reverb Tank.

The Bias Supply Differences:

8. Change the two 70uf Bias Supply Filter Caps back to a single 100uf 100v. This gives you back the ability to set the bias level.

This covers the major differences between the Blackface and Silverfacer era amps.

Felix · Post by **Felix** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:26 am

Sauerkraut wrote:
Felix wrote: If you buy the master volume model, you'll have more to adjust when setting your tone. I prefer not having that option--a twin should be simple.
nah, it's ok, just put the master volume on 10 and it's as clean as it can be.

That's true. I suppose I'm just being a fanatic about my tube amp preferences, but I don't like the idea of having an extra control on an amp that otherwise plays fine without it.
As I said, a Twin should be simple--operationally, of course, and in design.

Sauerkraut · Post by **Sauerkraut** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:03 am

Felix wrote:
Sauerkraut wrote:
Felix wrote: If you buy the master volume model, you'll have more to adjust when setting your tone. I prefer not having that option--a twin should be simple.
nah, it's ok, just put the master volume on 10 and it's as clean as it can be.
That's true. I suppose I'm just being a fanatic about my tube amp preferences, but I don't like the idea of having an extra control on an amp that otherwise plays fine without it.
As I said, a Twin should be simple--operationally, of course, and in design.

I agree, but when that knob makes the amp cheaper it's easier to overlook it.