Help me find the Tube Amp that I need.

[k o y l]

My setup for now consists of a Line 6 Pod XT Live and a Boss DD20 delay pedal and 3 Zvex.
I bought the Pod mainly because I didn't know what sound I wanted and was not able to try lots of amps to try to find that sound.
Same thing about FX pedals: I was constantly buying pedals to resell them through eBay several weeks after..

Now that I'm beginning to know what I want I'd like to go back to a  pedal + real amp rig.
I made my researches but I can't find an amp that have all the features I want, so I need some advices and help...

I need a tube amp that will be usable at an acceptable volume at home and with a band as well. (I don't play in a band right now but It might happen again someday !)

This is how I see it , I would set the amp just on the edge of break up: I want to be able to get just a little bit of crunch/dirt when I play with the guitar volume on 10 and have a clean sound when I turn down the guitar volume a litlle bit.
I would use the super duper channel one to get an overdrive sound (gain set on 10/11 o'clock) and the other channel to get the distortion (gain knob full) so a single channel amp is ok.

This is how I use the pod and it works very well for what I'm doing.

Talking about the sound: The "amps" I like and use in the Pod are the Vox AC30 and the Matchless DC30. Not the same sound but what I like in both of them is that they're warm and percussive at the same time and can achieve a fair amount of treble.. To my ears they're like the fender and Marshall sounds have been genetically crossed together...
Of course I can't buy a Vox AC30 (too loud, too expensive) and the Matchless (or BadCat) are even more expensive !

I know getting the same sound of these amps is impossible, what I want is getting the same kind of "feeling"..

Also, something that I absolutely need is an amp with a line-out, in order to be able to plug it directly in the computer.... This need is really an issue cuz it narrows my choice a lot...

I would have bought an Orange Tiny Terror (having the choice between 7 or 15 watt is great) but no line out !
The Epiphone Valve Jr was on my list too but 5W is not enough with a band.

The only amp that have all the feature I need is the Matamp First Lady (or maybe the one that's a litlle bit louder) but It's way off my budget and it seems impossible to find a used one...
Also I don't know how the Matamp amps sound (good I guess), I can't even find a soundclip and I am not able to try one here in France...

I have even think of getting a tube preamp pedal like the BadCat 2Tone/Dmage Control Womanizer/Tubeman2 but I am afraid it will be more complicated and expensive at the end (because I would have to buy a power amp and cab too)

So I'm lost... but maybe there are amps I didn't think of or I'm not aware of, solutions for me I didn't think about....

I'll take every piece of advice, idea, suggestion from you guys...

[JazzBlaster]

You should look at a hotrod deluxe, I got a deville last week and have been playing around with changing preamp tubes to get different tones. Definatly loud enough for a band and pre-out. You can get a decent one pretty cheaply (for a tube amp).

David

[starfish]

I have a 1963 Vox Ac-30 treble with TB and a 1993 Matchless DC-30.  These are two fantastic amps and although a bit different in tone, they make a nice complimentary duo.  Now I hate to say it, even moreso because I already have the amps and don't want to sound tone snobbish, but nothing really completely nails the tone of either of these amps except for the actual amps.  

But there's hope!  I think you could go about this in one of two ways.  You can get quite close, or decide exactly what turns you on the most and save and go for it.  Things that come close and sound very good would be the Hayseed, or the Korg AC-15.  I actually owned two Korg AC-15's at one point, both were the 1-12" blue speaker versions.  I eventually sold them to fund the vintage AC-30 long before prices became absurd.  The Hayseed amp is the original JMI circuit and sounds really good, albeit a bit stiff and less woody.  Some of this is due to the compenents being brand new and some is the tranformer and speakers.  But in the end, it will get you really close for quite a bargain.  Others have reported the Dr. Z amps can get the AC-30/DC-30 type tones too, so keep those on your list.

The idea of deciding what you ultimately want, saving long and hard for it may seem unpractical now.  But in the end it may be the wisest choice.  A vintage AC-30 is a lifetime amp, assuming you service it as required.  It is a tone that never grows old, and contrary to what you may think about an old "one trick pony," it is ironically very versatile.  The gradual breakup of the amp allows for quite a range of tones and compliments every guitar or pedal I can throw at it.  It is a golden tone all alone or a great base tone to ad pedals etc.  My recommendation would be to find a non-top boosted AC-30 that needs some TLC and even non-original speakers.  While the original blue alnicos are tone to die for, you can always get the reissues and still have an amazing amp.  This option could be had for $1600 - $2200 depending on the condition etc.  and would be money well spent.  You may have to look for a while and be ready to pounce.

In review, I missed the line out thing.  I would recommend you reconsider this.  IMO, taking a direct out of a great tube amp gets you much less than ideal tone.  You are probably used to working that way now with the POD.  A great, inexpensive solution is to buy a Shure SM-57.  Almost every guitar take is tracked with at least an SM-57 and most of the time soley an SM-57.  The cost is less than $100.  A line out will most defintely be preamp only, bypeassing a huge part of the AC-30/DC-30 type tone - the power amp and the speakers.  Trust me on this.  Just get used to micing your amp.  You will have much better results.

[Jarvis]

If you can't/don't want to mic your amp, lots of Attenuators have line outs that you can use, plus you can use it to get some nice overdrive tones at lower volumes.

[Pumpkin]

See JazzBlasters hotrod thread about the volume box.also i have a thread somewhere (6?months ago) where i posted how to make one if your a electronics noob like i was when i made it.it has a diagram.

I use a volume box on any amp at home because i want the power of the amp on 3 but quiet.

So this will get you a quiet amp,now guy buy the loudest amp you can find

I cant ever advise a amp direction man,I'm an effects and jaguar,mustang Geek,not an amp one

[Jarvis]

A volume box is just a master volume, don't let anyone tell you it's an attenuator or something that'll let you achieve power amp distortion. Almost all (if not all) master volume amps have their master volumes post-loop, so this is no different. Do not put the box between the amp and the speaker! 

[Pumpkin]

No,no,i hate amp distortion ,cant stand it.i just use the box to get the full sound out because my twin cant be turned down low enough without almost no sound coming out.
On almost one is way to loud for home,i use the box as another volume control because its not as sensitive as the amps pot.
Thats all,my amps are crystal clean 100% unless i switch some effects.

But,if you have an amp with pre/power in/out it works fine (good) there.On the twin i have to just put it after what ever effect i'm messin with,this allows my guitar to put out its full sound,just turned down a bit.
Its a shity solution but its fine for home.

I have ss combo also,and it works better in the pre/power loop in that.

[mezcalhead]

So your requirements are:

1. Vox/Matchless sound.
2. Low wattage enough to break up at living room levels.
3. High wattage enough to compete with a drummer.
4. Line out.
5. Cheap.

I have a feeling you're going to have to compromise somewhere .. particularly with 2/3/5 since most of the amps available with built-in power scaling or whatever are fairly boutiquey and thus expensive. I can think of amps that fulfill all but one of your criteria, but not all.

I think the best solutions have been suggested .. a Vox clone of some kind with an attenuator with line out. Even then it sounds like it might be pushing your budget. My personal choice would be either a Korg RI Vox, or a Hayseed or maybe a JMI ..  with a THD Hotplate. A decent attenuator would also allow you to mic a driven amp at fairly low levels if you decide to do that.

Saving for a 60s Vox would get you the best possible outcome, but if a Matamp is too pricey for you then a 60s Vox is way out of your league. And if your favourite sound is a Vox patch in the Pod, then I expect any decent clone with valves is going to give you a lot more Voxiness.

[glimmertwin]

How cheap is cheap?  $300 cheap, $600 cheap, $1,000 cheap?

I hate to tell you, but I think your going to be pretty frustrated in your quest.  Your not going to find a lot of amps that satisfy your tone requirements AND have a line out.  Go for tone first, the line out thing should be addressed later...the only thing I can think that might actually meet your requirements is I recall seeing an actual speaker cabinet being developed a while back that you can slip a POD/amp emulator into and plug it in like a regular amp.  I can't remember who made it, but I know it was being developed a while back....it may be expensive though. 

...on the other side, I think you might be very happy with one of the smaller Bad Cat amps.  I just had a Cub and for 15/18ish watts, it was freaking LOUD but had a great master volume that you could dial in to the right spot.  Your right that the EL84 amps tend to be a little more percussive with that quicker attack.  I see the smaller Bad Cat amps go from $700-$1000 - with a little patience you might be able to snipe one of ebay for a reasonable price.  Otherwise, the newer Vox AC30CC line and the AC15 line are both very good options.  Our singer has the 2x12 version and it's a nice amp especially after he only paid $700.  No line out, but what's more important here? 

If you went with a real amp, you might want to invest in some sort of other device later on to get the line out feature - a reamp box of some kind might give you some line level ability or you can get a signal splitter and just keep the pod so one side goes to the amp and another side goes to the POD.  One thing is for sure - you'll likely never find a line out on the back of an amp that soundsanything  like what the amp sounds like in a room or even recorded in a room for that matter so don't expect to find a device that sounds the same in amp form that it does in a line level scenario. 

[k o y l]

(Mezcalhead & Glimmertwins: I started to write my answer before yours and I'm too lazy to make a new global answer so I answered you at the end of this post )

Thanks for all your answers.

@Starfish:
I know your solution is THE dream configuration of all guitar player but I'm afraid that's really not the one for me knowing  how I'm making my music now... I should have explained why I need an amp that's not too loud and why I absolutely need a line out:
My current music project is a solo project in which I heavily rely on live self sampling using a software in a laptop. The laptop is providing the other instruments parts as well (drums, bass etc..).
I play a guitar line, sample a loop it in the computer and so on... So I need the direct guitar to be as loud as what's played by the laptop and playing through an amp as loud as the VOX AC30 would mean having a PA system (for the output of the laptop) way too loud for home.
That's why I was looking at small amps...
Sample a mic'ed amp would be difficukt too since the mic would record what's coming out of the PA as well... and little extra signal + little extra signal + little extra signal +little extra signal  turn into a mud pretty quickly.. 

Thanks because you made me realize that maybe wanting to have the same rig for my solo project and for playing in a band configuration may be a desperate quest !

I know it might sound like the Pod is the solution for me but I'd really like a little more authenticity and I'd like to be able to gety feedback easily so I guess there are 2 solutions left:

1 - An amp with a power attenuator:
I didn't know power attenuators have a line out, this a is good news, I will check this out...
A question a bout this: is it possible to use a power attenuator with a combo ? or only with an head + cabs

2 - I buy a good tube preamp with an HP simulation for my actual music project and will buy an amp later for the band configuration.
Well I know what you think: that will not give me feedback easily BUT since yesterday, I digged a little more and found this:

An all tube (4x 12AX7 tubes) / 3 channel preamp with every output I will ever need:
- To Power Amp (0dBm)
- To FX Return (-10dBm)
- To Amp Input (-20dBm, filtered)
- To Recording (-10 dBm, with speaker simulation)
- To Headphones (0 dBm, with speaker simulation).
Thanks to the "to amp input" and the "To Recording", I'll be able to plug into the computer and into a small crappy amp at the same time and be able to get feedback easily..

Also the great thing that puts this one on top of every other preamp I heard about is this:
"All-tube single-ended 0.5 Watts Power Amp with Drive and Volume controls".
It's supposed to simulate power amp distortion... I guess I will not able to get closer to a "real" tube amp sound with a preamp !
..and I only read rave review about it so it worth give it a try ! (There's a store here that gives your money back if you're not satisfied by your purchase and send it back within 30 days, not reason asked so..)

One last thing: Now that I think of it, my settings on the Pod are probably quite far from the pure Vox or Matchless one ! (for exemple, there's a presence knob in the pod... not on the AC-30 ) and I've probably changed the cab too..
Too late now but I'll check tomorrow to see what my settings are... If I'm really far from those two amps, maybe I would better have to open my ears rather than focus exactly on those 2 amps...  I'd rather focus on what I like in them.
----------------------
@mescalheadz:
You see now:  I begun to realize I'll have to compromise...

I can think of amps that fulfill all but one of your criteria, but not all.

I'll be happy to hear what they are and what criteria they match.. 

How cheap is cheap?  $300 cheap, $600 cheap, $1,000 cheap?

I haven't calculate exactly how much money I have for this (I'm selling and buying lots of stuff these days + I'll will be able to earn a litlle more money with the sale of the pod and another amp I have..), I'll do it and tell you.
I have no urge to swap the pod for an amp so, if I find the ideal amp for me and it's over my budget, I think it's wiser to wait to have the money necessary to buy it, no ?

...on the other side, I think you might be very happy with one of the smaller Bad Cat amps.  I just had a Cub and for 15/18ish watts, it was freaking LOUD but had a great master volume that you could dial in to the right spot.  Your right that the EL84 amps tend to be a little more percussive with that quicker attack.  I see the smaller Bad Cat amps go from $700-$1000 - with a little patience you might be able to snipe one of ebay for a reasonable price.  Otherwise, the newer Vox AC30CC line and the AC15 line are both very good options.  Our singer has the 2x12 version and it's a nice amp especially after he only paid $700.  No line out, but what's more important here?

If you went with a real amp, you might want to invest in some sort of other device later on to get the line out feature - a reamp box of some kind might give you some line level ability or you can get a signal splitter and just keep the pod so one side goes to the amp and another side goes to the POD.  One thing is for sure - you'll likely never find a line out on the back of an amp that soundsanything  like what the amp sounds like in a room or even recorded in a room for that matter so don't expect to find a device that sounds the same in amp form that it does in a line level scenario. 

I know i know, It's the line out need that complicates all but as I just explained I really need it for what I do now. And I know it will never sound the same as a real amp in a real room (It will allways miss the room!)
... That's why the more It goes, the more I think I will split my quest in two...
and the preamp I talked about previously would be a good complement to any good tube amp I think so it may be usefull even with the amp.

I will go check out the BadCat cub.. 15/18 watts seems to be the ideal power for me.

Wow !!  that's a loong post !! 

[k o y l]

I really like what idiotbear say about the Vox AC30CC here---> index.php?topic=4207.0 
Sould I expect the vox AC15 to sound the same with less volume ??

[mezcalhead]

I would imagine they'd be pretty similar, although the same isn't true of the vintage Voxes I believe.

You can use attenuators with combos, as long as the speakers aren't hardwired which they generally only are in very cheap amps I think.

The more I think about this, the more I'm not sure why you want an amp .. it seems like the Pod is perfect for your needs. Using an amp solely through a line out is going to bypass lots of what makes it sound amp-like as the guys have said above .. IMO it will sound better than a modeller, but you're basically wasting your speakers and cabinet .. and you're stuck with the one amp sound as opposed to all the models in your Pod. Ideally you would then run your amp through a speaker and cab simulator too .. so you're still using the Pod anyway.

Miking a small amp, like a 5W Champ, allows you to turn it up to get a real cranked amp sound .. cab and speaker as well .. lots of recordings are done this way, a famous example being Layla which I think is a tweed champ. Mind you, even 5W champs are pretty loud and might drown out your laptop.

Using a line out from a bigger amp allows you to use that amp for recording, but this solution is really only helpful when you already have the amp anyway.

If you are set on getting an amp with an attenuator and line out, I would suggest looking for a head alone to start with .. then you could use the amp into a full dummy load on the attenuator, and the line out from there. Then, when you started playing in a band you could pick up a speaker cabinet .. that would spread the cost.

If all you want to do is get some "valve warmth" to your tone, perhaps tube pedals (eg the EHX Black Finger compressor) are the way to go .. ?

[Jarvis]

I would imagine they'd be pretty similar, although the same isn't true of the vintage Voxes I believe.

You can use attenuators with combos, as long as the speakers aren't hardwired which they generally only are in very cheap amps I think.

Actually, I'm pretty sure the new Vox Custom Classic series amps are all hardwired speakers. 

[glimmertwin]

I would imagine they'd be pretty similar, although the same isn't true of the vintage Voxes I believe.

You can use attenuators with combos, as long as the speakers aren't hardwired which they generally only are in very cheap amps I think.

Actually, I'm pretty sure the new Vox Custom Classic series amps are all hardwired speakers. 

He's right they are.  I unsoldered the ones from singer's AC30 and soldered the ends to metal clamps that fit over the speaker lugs.  It's a huge pain in the arse working on those!

[k o y l]

The more I think about this, the more I'm not sure why you want an amp .. it seems like the Pod is perfect for your needs. Using an amp solely through a line out is going to bypass lots of what makes it sound amp-like as the guys have said above .. IMO it will sound better than a modeller, but you're basically wasting your speakers and cabinet .. and you're stuck with the one amp sound as opposed to all the models in your Pod. Ideally you would then run your amp through a speaker and cab simulator too .. so you're still using the Pod anyway.

I understand the reason why I want to switch to an amp might not be very clear... to tell the truth, this discussion makes me think about what's good in the pod and what's not..
The thing is that I feel frustrated with the pod and I'm not using it as it's supposed to be used:
Basically you use a pod because you need a lots of different colors to your sound (lots of "amps", cabs, fx).
The fact is I just need one or two amp (i tend to use the vox preset for vintage kind of tone and the matchless for more modern tone) and 4 or 5 effects and this really works against me: I find myself using a lot of preset just for variations of 2 tones (1 preset is the vox with slow gear + phaser in certain settings, 1 preset is the vox with slow gear + phaser in other settings and so on) the result of this is I really get lost in all those presets. This wasn't really an issue when I was in composition phase but since a few month I work to be able to play live and it happens very often that I screw up a song because of this.
Another drawback of this is that I can't play the effects, you got to scroll through menus to be able to change tremolo speed in real time for exemple... and playing with effects is really something I love to do... To tell it in 3 words: I want knobs !
That's why my first idea was to sell the ipod, buy effects pedals and an amp with a line out.... but I didn' realized at the time it was so hard to find...

One word I realize about the fact that the line out will never give the true sound of the amp: If that sound is not awful, maybe it's not a bad thing because I guess it would help the guitar loops to stand apart from the guitar played on top.
When I'll play live with true stage equipment and an enginneer (problably not for tomorrow.. let me first begin by dark smoky club with no equipment but a keyboard amp.. ), it would be cool to have the amp mic'ed going directly in the PA and the line out of the attenuator going into the computer just for the loop parts to be recorded like that, no ?
I read the thread about Zhivago amp quest and I read you suggest him to use an attenuator for clubs where he can't play loud. I got this idea from that.. 

The head + attenuator you suggest is a good idea. As you said it'll spread the cost and at the end, when I'll have the cab, I will be ready for every situation: from my room the live shows of various size and equipment.

But I think I'll not hurry myself, I still can use the pod for a while, and as glimmertwin said I'll go for tone first so keeps the amp suggestions coming, it will help my researches (there's already a bunch of amp you named I never heard about before !).
So to sum up the requirements.
- Tubes must be EL84 (to have this AC30/DC30 feel I like)
- Amp power should be around 15/20 Watts

If you see other requirements needed to get close to that kind of sound, please tell me.