i need your opinion guys! SF Twin for my CIJ Jazzmaster swap. should I?

[blacktiger]

Wow, that's a pretty bold statement, dodge.  At least you can work on a vintage amp, unlike new circuit board loaded crap. I couldn't disagree more. No rock throwing, just my opinion.

+1

I've played nothing but vintage amps for the last 15 years and have had no problems.  A vintage amp shouldn't need to be "completely rebuilt" unless it's been seriously abused.  A proper servicing by a good tech that involves replacing the electrolytics (if it hasn't been done in the last 10 years) is generally all you need.  I've had more issues with guitars (vintage and new) than I ever have with amps.

As for the Twin, another downside is that I believe they went to fiberboard cabinets in the late 70s, which means they are not as durable or resonant as earlier hardwood cabs.

[mewithoutus]

135watt UL models can not be modded to Blackface specs easily. It's not worth the trouble.

also: is that 2nd speaker a good one?

FALSE.

the silverface amps didnt get too many circuit changes. there are some different value caps and resistors, but thats about it. to convert an UL sf fender to non UL, simply change the tap on the transformer. UL transformers have taps for regular operation.

[RumorsOFsurF]

Wow, that's a pretty bold statement, dodge.  At least you can work on a vintage amp, unlike new circuit board loaded crap. I couldn't disagree more. No rock throwing, just my opinion.

+1

I've played nothing but vintage amps for the last 15 years and have had no problems.  A vintage amp shouldn't need to be "completely rebuilt" unless it's been seriously abused.  A proper servicing by a good tech that involves replacing the electrolytics (if it hasn't been done in the last 10 years) is generally all you need.  I've had more issues with guitars (vintage and new) than I ever have with amps.

As for the Twin, another downside is that I believe they went to fiberboard cabinets in the late 70s, which means they are not as durable or resonant as earlier hardwood cabs.

If a vintage amp works, it's serviceable.  It will always hold its value, and be worth more than a used version of its new counterpart.  If it works properly, a handwired amp will always be a better purchase than a new circuit board product.

[zhivago]

135watt UL models can not be modded to Blackface specs easily. It's not worth the trouble.

also: is that 2nd speaker a good one?

FALSE.

the silverface amps didnt get too many circuit changes. there are some different value caps and resistors, but thats about it. to convert an UL sf fender to non UL, simply change the tap on the transformer. UL transformers have taps for regular operation.

I think Sauerkraut is actually correct is saying it is a real hassle to change the late 70s silverface UL models to blackface specs...I've read threads about this in the past when everyone agrees on that.

here's a guy who does blackfacing....read the last paragraph:

http://www.andrewsamplab.com/blackfacing.htm

Pricing for this service varies but is generally about $55 - $75 for most late 60s and early 70s Silverface Fender amps.  Master Volume and high power models such as Twins and Showmans are a little higher. Ultra-linear amps can be considerably more.

[Sauerkraut]

A word in defense of late 70's twins: I've seen quite a few bands this summer and of course I try to see as many gigs as possible on TV (Jools Holland and whatever else is on) and I noticed they're very popular amps. In fact I think silverface twins are easily the most popular amps with good (imo) bands and almost all of them have mastervolume knobs (I can't tell if they're push-pull knobs or not of course).
I can also tell you that I love the sound of mine and if I had a car and was in a regularly gigging band (I'm getting one started up atm) I wouldn't consider selling it.

[1946dodge]

Yes Rumor I have worked on and rebuilt vintage amps as well as old tube radios.
The point is that people want too damn much money for something that you will have to spend alot of time on to make safe, and work well, and you are  going to have to use new components anyways. So what is 'vintage " about that?

A guitar doesnt have this problem. New frets maybe and a fingerboard replane,ne pots, caps and switches (guitar caps are usually pretty much fine no matter how old they get, because they dont have shitloads of voltage on them)  but the guitar is still vintage.

I think it is wonderful to rebuild a vintage amp, but it is not as simple as just retubing it and rebiasing it. The amps run hot and the wires cook and the insulation dries out. The caps get leaky and have to be replaced, and the resistors that carry alot of current sometimes have to be replaced because they change their value of resistance after being heated and cooled for many years.  I just think they ought to cost alot less than a new amp, that's all.

The circuit board amps - the cheapos are junk when they break. Even the damn jacks are soldered onto a board which can come loose.

Amps come and go but guitars are more  or less permanent and can last longer than a lifetime.

JMHO

[Jay]

A vintage amp will be more serviceable then a new circuit board amp but I'll still take a new hand-wired clone over the real thing any day (provided the point is for playing and not collecting or investment.)

[blacktiger]

Yes Rumor I have worked on and rebuilt vintage amps as well as old tube radios.
The point is that people want too damn much money for something that you will have to spend alot of time on to make safe, and work well, and you are  going to have to use new components anyways. So what is 'vintage " about that?

A guitar doesnt have this problem. New frets maybe and a fingerboard replane,ne pots, caps and switches (guitar caps are usually pretty much fine no matter how old they get, because they dont have shitloads of voltage on them)  but the guitar is still vintage.

I think it is wonderful to rebuild a vintage amp, but it is not as simple as just retubing it and rebiasing it. The amps run hot and the wires cook and the insulation dries out. The caps get leaky and have to be replaced, and the resistors that carry alot of current sometimes have to be replaced because they change their value of resistance after being heated and cooled for many years.  I just think they ought to cost alot less than a new amp, that's all.

The circuit board amps - the cheapos are junk when they break. Even the damn jacks are soldered onto a board which can come loose.

Amps come and go but guitars are more  or less permanent and can last longer than a lifetime.

JMHO

I've owned 12 vintage amps in the last 15 years and have never had to do much more than replace some caps, the odd speaker and add a grounded plug.  It sounds like you've encountered some real dogs.  Not a single one of my amps had the problems that you listed.  As far as the price goes, yes some vintage amps are ridiculously expensive (plexi Marshalls, most tweed and some blackface Fenders), but on the whole, when you compare the prices to modern amps built using the same methods and quality materials (AKA boutique amps), many vintage amps are actually more affordable.  Comparing a nice handwired vintage amp to a cheap modern circuitboard amp is like comparing a BMW to a Yugo.  Sure, the Yugo's cheaper, but you get what you pay for...

[1946dodge]

Blackfinger I agree. The only amps worth anything are the hand wired jobs. The circuit board ones are throw aways.
But you can get a Fender tube amp for about 1000 bucks or a Marshal head for 1400 or a mesa double rectifier head for 1500 and they are all high quality.
The old amps should never approach those prices. Plus you dont know the previous owner treated the amp.
If you are willng to spend the time recappnig the thing go for it, but a person's time is worth something too, so it should be considered in the price.

A vintage amp that has been totally rebuilt - worth some good money. But something that has only had retubing and nothing else is a crap shoot.

Sometimes it takes a while to debug a shitty sounding amp too - a bad plate resistor or something like that.
It can be fixed for sure, but it takes time. If you have to take it to someone to restore it, it costs too.
Those things should be considered in the price paid for it, I think.

And it had better be done right. If some amatuer does it who owns a solering iron then you can get burned.

All this has to be considered before plunking down hard earned money for an old piece of electronic equipment, IMHO.

[RumorsOFsurF]

Aside from the Vibro-King Custom, all new Fender amps are circuit board loaded...

Twin Reissue, Deluxe Reverb RI, Super Reverb RI?  Circuit Boards, not hand wired.

[1946dodge]

Rumours I see your point.
What kind of quality are the boards?
I had to fix a  Roland Jazz chorus for my son and had to replace the shitty jacks with metal ones, since the plastic crap ones broke after a year.

I did have s fender princeton chorus i had to fix since the input jacks were mounted onto the board and worked loose.

Arent Mesa and Marshalls still hand wired?

[RumorsOFsurF]

Rumours I see your point.
What kind of quality are the boards?
I had to fix a  Roland Jazz chorus for my son and had to replace the shitty jacks with metal ones, since the plastic crap ones broke after a year.

I did have s fender princeton chorus i had to fix since the input jacks were mounted onto the board and worked loose.

Arent Mesa and Marshalls still hand wired?

I'm sure the quality's fine.  I have faith in Fender's products.  I just wanted a vintage hand-wired amp.  Mine has been modded with a 3 prong plug, and works perfectly.  On the other hand, the other guitar player in my band has a Reissue, and it sounds great!  I agree that amps do come and go for the most part, though.

I'm taking my '71 in tomorrow to have it looked over, and perhaps re-tubed.  I have absolutely no question about the safety or reliability, and I'm not worried about dings in the tolex.  It already has it's share of "beauty marks." 

As far as Marshalls and Mesas go, I know that their quality is great, but I'm not sure whether they are hand-wired.  Plus, I want Fender clean tone! 

[blacktiger]

Rumours I see your point.
What kind of quality are the boards?
I had to fix a  Roland Jazz chorus for my son and had to replace the shitty jacks with metal ones, since the plastic crap ones broke after a year.

I did have s fender princeton chorus i had to fix since the input jacks were mounted onto the board and worked loose.

Arent Mesa and Marshalls still hand wired?

For the record, the RI Tweed Twin is also handwired.  Marshall went to PCBs in 1974.  Marshall does make the Handwired Series (1974x, 2061x, 1959HW), but those are not cheap.  In addition, a LOT of the 1974x and 2061x amps have had blown OTs (some multiple OTs)  because Marshall originally didn't put a beefy enough OT in there.  I agree that if you are going to buy a vintage amp you should know what you are buying and either know how to work on them or have a good tech.  I take all my amps to Pete Cage, who really knows what he's doing, will not overcharge you and is a nice guy as well.  Another thing to consider is that while most modern amps will only lose value once they leave the shop, a vintage amp in decent shape will almost always gain value over time.