AVRI or CIJ

[fullerplast]

AV and CIJ tuners are the exact same ones,Made in japan GOTOH.you only have to take them of to see the stamps to see this,yet people believe the AV are better because they're AV

Are you sure about this? I've read that the CIJs tuners are actually Ping from Taiwan. I never took them off and specifically looked for a stamp though. The Pings don't have any stamp on them, IIRC. That's whats on the MIMs too, AFAIK. That's one way to keep the prices down.

But you're right that AV uses Gotohs that can be bought in an Allparts wrapper for less than the Fender-packaged ones. Allparts recently caught on to people doing this and closed up the price gap a little (dammit).

And IIRC, no one in the thread has factored the AV G&G case into the equation. There's a buck and a half right there.

Edit:  Looking back, I see luau for one mentioned the case.

[Felix]

However, you say that the AV is not better than the CIJ, yet your argument is contingent on quite a few modifications in order to make it true.

True,this is the whole point though!

pumpkin=as stock guitars they sound different

But were also talking new guitars so saying you can get a 2nd hand AV for a grand is also splitting hairs is it not?We cant have a new Cij vs a 2nd hand AV,thats not fair either dude.

So, the $650 price tag doesn't include shipping, parts, or labor. By the end of that ordeal, your CIJ costs closer to $900

Labor? I do it all myself!

Straight from the factory theres some considerable sound differences,not necessarily bad,just different...i actually put a CIJ pickup back in my Jaguar to test it out a bit before i sent it to Stereoordinary,and its pretty damn cool.I been lovin it,but......i do prefer SD's and have an Antiquity coming.
Before that i had AV's,SJAG2' and 3's in it and they rock too.

See,if i was to buy an AV i would have to strip it and paint it and use poly as i recently found a hate for Nitro,but thats me.

So as for the wood parts (body and neck) imho there is no difference(the bodys ARE identical!) that justifies the price difference.and no matter how you do the math concerning new AV's or CIJ's ,Cij will still be cheaper if you replace everything,paint included!
So it really comes down to what you want,what you can afford and what you wana do to it and of course, is street cred important.Personally i hate the idea of street cred and i've always been an anti-social outcast so no guitar in the world is gonna change that.




also you can see the differences between the JZ pups hereOffsetguitars
I think the AV JZ pup is one of the most beautiful sounding pups too by the way

Contrary to popular belief,AV's ARE NOT BETTER MADE than CIJ,this is ridiculous..if CIJ's are flawless,and they are, then how do you improve on it?

I think that is part of the problem I have with your post. Your last line, the one I moved from an earlier post seems to make no sense to me. I only question you because of this section. You state that the AV is not better made than the CIJ, yet your following thought contradicts it.
I mean, what is your point?    Please, do not miscontrue this as a flame, and rather consider it a point of mine that your argument is somewhat flawed in this debate. Or, maybe you meant to type something else. I don't always edit, so that may be the case.

Additionally, what is your contention with the nitro finish? Do you think it hurts the sound? I'm still not sure why you would feel the need to strip it completely. Plus, and I may be incorrect here, the AV guitars are a mix of poly and nitro. In other words, I've heard on a few different occassions that the AV has a poly base and a nitro coat over it. If that is true, it would be unnecessary to strip it. Plus, what are you implying about the finish and its effect on tone? A curious point.

That's true about color selection being better though. Unfortunately, Fender America does not offer much variety. *sigh* 

Are you sure about the woods? I mean, what is your evidence that the basswood used on early MIJ and CIJ guitars is in no way different from alder? I agree that sonically it can be a subjective debate, but you seem to be arguing opinion as fact here. I could be mistaken, but it seems that way. I love my CIJ JM, but I do think it feels and plays differently from my AV--not better, just different.

Anyway, that's an interesting take, and one that I traditionally agree with--just not for all the reasons you listed.

P.S. Oh, and my comparison... You were contending that the CIJ, completely modded, could stand up to an AV. My point was that you need to perform those mods in order for your statement to be true. Not because I feel that way, but that your own words imply it. You point out the imperfections of the import, and highlight the need to alleviate them. Yet, that is an unfair if you don't consider the AV as an upgradeable item as well. Anyway, enough of my rant.

[pullover]

http://www.fenderjaguar.net/reissue.htm

[Felix]

http://www.fenderjaguar.net/reissue.htm

cool website. definitely as some interesting facts.

[Pumpkin]

AV and CIJ tuners are the exact same ones,Made in japan GOTOH.you only have to take them of to see the stamps to see this,yet people believe the AV are better because they're AV

Are you sure about this? I've read that the CIJs tuners are actually Ping from Taiwan. I never took them off and specifically looked for a stamp though. The Pings don't have any stamp on them, IIRC. That's whats on the MIMs too, AFAIK. That's one way to keep the prices down.

But you're right that AV uses Gotohs that can be bought in an Allparts wrapper for less than the Fender-packaged ones. Allparts recently caught on to people doing this and closed up the price gap a little (dammit).

And IIRC, no one in the thread has factored the AV G&G case into the equation. There's a buck and a half right there.

Edit:  Looking back, I see luau for one mentioned the case.

100% doug,i saw it with my own eyes,Fender japan uses the exact same GOTOH tuners as the US Fender out of Corona.

The case is a good point,although it's never realy been an issue to me,but I'm sure(not 100%) you could get one for under US$100 with your order from japan,i'm not certain but i vaguely remember some one telling me thats about the cost for one.Don't quote me on it.

[Pumpkin]

I think that is part of the problem I have with your post. Your last line, the one I moved from an earlier post seems to make no sense to me. I only question you because of this section. You state that the AV is not better made than the CIJ, yet your following thought contradicts it.
I mean, what is your point?    Please, do not miscontrue this as a flame, and rather consider it a point of mine that your argument is somewhat flawed in this debate. Or, maybe you meant to type something else. I don't always edit, so that may be the case.

Additionally, what is your contention with the nitro finish? Do you think it hurts the sound? I'm still not sure why you would feel the need to strip it completely. Plus, and I may be incorrect here, the AV guitars are a mix of poly and nitro. In other words, I've heard on a few different occassions that the AV has a poly base and a nitro coat over it. If that is true, it would be unnecessary to strip it. Plus, what are you implying about the finish and its effect on tone? A curious point.

That's true about color selection being better though. Unfortunately, Fender America does not offer much variety. *sigh* 

Are you sure about the woods? I mean, what is your evidence that the basswood used on early MIJ and CIJ guitars is in no way different from alder? I agree that sonically it can be a subjective debate, but you seem to be arguing opinion as fact here. I could be mistaken, but it seems that way. I love my CIJ JM, but I do think it feels and plays differently from my AV--not better, just different.

Anyway, that's an interesting take, and one that I traditionally agree with--just not for all the reasons you listed.

P.S. Oh, and my comparison... You were contending that the CIJ, completely modded, could stand up to an AV. My point was that you need to perform those mods in order for your statement to be true. Not because I feel that way, but that your own words imply it. You point out the imperfections of the import, and highlight the need to alleviate them. Yet, that is an unfair if you don't consider the AV as an upgradeable item as well. Anyway, enough of my rant.

Dude,i never said Basswood and Alder are the same,i said they are both good and i dont see a guitar made out of basswood as a downfall.AFAIK All CIJ's are now Alder anyways.

Its simple,both AV and CIJ are made about as good as a guitar can be made and neither has a better finish or assembly than the other.

Its my personal feeling towards nitro that makes me dis-like it,i hate the white haze it has when touched.I have a vintage mustang that i am for ever trying to keep non-hazy.

As for the finish affecting sound.....i never mentioned it and have no idea what,if any of the differences would be.But it cant be too different as Fender used some kind of poly in the 70's didnt they!

My whole argument is based on the fact,yes Fact that i or anyone can buy a CIJ,mod it and have a guitar equal to a AV,this is because the CIJ fenders are of a high quality to begin with,and once the CIJ electronics are replaced with AV(which are better imo) neither guitar has anything over the other performance wise....opinion wise is a different story it would seem!

Yes the stock AV electronics are more desirable than the CIJ,i never said they weren't.

So,as stock guitars the AV sounds better IMO,but with as little work as changing the pups in a CIJ it will sound as good quite easily.

Also,in Au shipping is not a factor as a lot of stores stock CIJ's and theyre about AU$1,100.  which is kinda good for retail i spose.,I'm only ordering from Japan for the colors that i cant find here  ATM is all.

Now,are we clear? I feel i've explained this clearly over and over and over in this thread.

[i love sharin foo]

The case is a good point,although it's never realy been an issue to me,but I'm sure(not 100%) you could get one for under US$100 with your order from japan,i'm not certain but i vaguely remember some one telling me thats about the cost for one.Don't quote me on it.

I have ordered directly from Ishibashi several times in years past. You can get a G&G case with no problem. However, they cost the about the same as they do here. From an email I have saved from 2003 (the last JM I bought from them), it was running at about $137 for the case. Shipping is more due to the extra weight as well. IMO, I would rather just buy a used AVRI for about the same price as a new Japanese model from Ishibashi or eBay. I have modded Japanese ones in the past and turned them into great sounding and playing guitars, but sometimes it just isn't worth it to take the time sourcing the parts and doing the work. In the end they still don't have the lacquer finish that I love either. Almost every guitar I own has a lacquer finish and I have no problems with any feeling sticky or anything like that. To each his own. I've had them all and I will stick to American ones for most purposes.

Justin

[Pumpkin]

Cool,thats ok for a case cause they're dear here in AU.I'm awaiting an email from ishibashi so i should have an exact price soon too.
Same here dude i"ll stick with CIJ.
The only thing i love about nitro is it bangs up and gets marked real easy,i like that about it.

[Felix]

Here is what you've said thus far...

Now,are we clear? I feel i've explained this clearly over and over and over in this thread.

First you said:
Contrary to popular belief,AV's ARE NOT BETTER MADE than CIJ,this is ridiculous..if CIJ's are flawless,and they are, then how do you improve on it?

Then you stated:
Yes the stock AV electronics are more desirable than the CIJ,i never said they weren't.

You stated:
Its simple,both AV and CIJ are made about as good as a guitar can be made and neither has a better finish or assembly than the other

Followed it up with the following statements:
So,as stock guitars the AV sounds better IMO,but with as little work as changing the pups in a CIJ it will sound as good quite easily.


Here you stated:
So as for the wood parts (body and neck) imho there is no difference(the bodys ARE identical!)

Here you stated:
Dude,i never said Basswood and Alder are the same,i said they are both good and i dont see a guitar made out of basswood as a downfall.AFAIK All CIJ's are now Alder anyways.

I'm sure this will heat the argument, but if you read your posts, there are a few areas of contradiction. I think your line that you've gone "over and over" this debate seemed to imply that I'm slow, though I could be reading into it far more than necessary.
Nevertheless, I never really missed any point. I highlighted the contradictory points that confused me and listed them in order. Naturally, if you read them, you'll see why I asked in the first place.

But yes, in many regards, things are much clearer from my standpoint.

Anyway, I didn't say that you were implying anything about tone and the finish, that was my point that it is subjective. I could have been unclear in that matter--my mistake.

[Pumpkin]

Well read my lost post addressed to you,it is clear!

For christ sake,there not contradictions, guitars are made up by more than one part.

Electronics is the only quality difference as stock guitars,the finishes on both are flawless.

[pullover]

Uhh...  Seriously, you guys are arguing personal preference, now.  The differences in AVRI and CIJ are many, but they don't add up to a whole lot in the end. No matter what anyone gets, AVRI or CIJ, they win.  And that's cool.

[Pumpkin]

Sure, but this guy just doesn't seem to understand anything!

[FireAarro]

To be fair Pumpkin, you're not the easiest person to read, but I can understand you alright. I think the problem is some of the things you say aren't that clear or do not reflect what you actually meant to say. For example, Felix thinks the following statements contradict:

"Contrary to popular belief,AV's ARE NOT BETTER MADE than CIJ,this is ridiculous..if CIJ's are flawless,and they are, then how do you improve on it?"

"Yes the stock AV electronics are more desirable than the CIJ,i never said they weren't."

They could be easily read as contradictory, but what I think you meant from the first statement was that CIJs and AVs are of flawless build quality, not that CIJs are flawless guitars (weak pickups would be a flaw), in which case your statement is not contradictory and a valid opinion.

He also took the following statements as contradictory:

"So as for the wood parts (body and neck) imho there is no difference(the bodys ARE identical!)"

"Dude,i never said Basswood and Alder are the same,i said they are both good and i dont see a guitar made out of basswood as a downfall.AFAIK All CIJ's are now Alder anyways."

Which is true if you were talking about the old basswood MIJ bodies and the alder AVRI bodies, but you weren't, because you were talking about new CIJ guitars and they don't make Jazzmasters/Jaguars out of basswood anymore (Mustangs, Teles and Strats etc. still come in basswood though).

Felix, you said:
"Yet, that is an unfair if you don't consider the AV as an upgradeable item as well."

I think his point was that AVRIs are fine without upgrading, but he thinks you can upgrade a new CIJ to be as good as an AVRI and still be under the cost of a new AVRI.

I hope this post clears some things up.

p.s. Pumpkin, can you tell me some of the other Japanese sites that will ship to Australia? I've only had luck with Ishibashi so far, though I haven't really tried around. Ikebe didn't respond when I sent them an email a while ago.

[Pumpkin]

What you said is exactly what i mean about these guitars!

I would only go with ishibashi as I've only heard good things about them,but there is guitarjapan,they done something to their site so international shoppers cant see the fender menu,I've tried to get in via yahoo.japan etc but it just wont work.That site was really really cool for showing fender Japans colors,i think they had almost every color conceivable.

Ishibashi themselves state:

If there is ever a specific item you are looking for and do not see it on our site, please let us know via e-mail what it is and we will try to locate it for you as we are well connected to a network of those enthusiastic makers.

so email them and maybe they can get what you need,I'm hoping they can source me a shell pink JZ.

[Pumpkin]

Well i got a reply and Daisuke said atm they only have what is on the site and shell pink hasn't been made recently

I'm awaiting another reply about old candy apple red,which they have but i want matching HS so i don't know yet,and the exact price with a case to AU,so I'll have to wait and see what he says.